Ep068: Understanding emotional intelligence and the “cocktail of behaviors” with Hile Rutledge

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DESCRIPTION: Did you know that EQ (emotional intelligence quotient) is actually a better predictor of workplace success than IQ? It’s true, and in today’s episode of the TalentGrow Show with Halelly Azulay, the fascinating subject of emotional intelligence is brightly illuminated by one of the world’s foremost trainers in EQ assessment tools and models: Hile Rutledge. Our discussion centers around one of the best EQ models out there—The Emotional Quotient Inventory (EQ-i)—and how you can understand it to improve your own EQ. Take a listen to find out what the “cocktail of behaviors” is, which EQ-i element is most associated with leadership, what improves self-regard more positively than anything else, as well as an actionable tip aimed at getting you out of your “bubble”. In fact, Hile urges you to do it as soon as you can and we both agree it might actually change the world if more of us did it!

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  • What mistaken approach are people taking with emotional intelligence (EQ)? (4:56)
  • What’s the better approach? (5:15)
  • The ironic reason EQ tests are so popular these days and why Hile thinks this aspect is actually the least interesting and least helpful (5:56)
  • “The cocktail of behaviors” and why he thinks this is where the real gold is at (7:11)
  • Halelly asks if there is one emotional “recipe” everyone should strive for or if it’s more situational and contextual (8:09)
  • Hile answers the question using the example of two important elements within the EQ-i model: independence and interpersonal relationship (8:22)
  • A particularly juicy and interesting emotional “cocktail” for leaders to think about: the blend of independence and assertiveness (12:28)
  • What are the “big three” EQ-i elements? (15:42)
  • Of all 16 EQ-i elements, which is the one most associated with leadership? (16:44)
  • Hile gives some examples of how the big three elements are intimately interrelated (17:08)
  • Nothing affects my self-regard more positively than …” (18:37)
  • Hile outlines the general game-plan for using the EQ-i as a tool for emotional growth (20:26)
  • How targeting one particular element like empathy has a multifaceted ripple effect (22:57)
  • What makes self-regard a particularly sensitive topic? What’s an approach that can help you improve sensitive elements like this one without having to directly touch them? (25:20)
  • Hile corrects a misguided expectation that many people have for EQ-i tests (26:16)
  • Hile discusses how people are becoming increasingly trapped within their own “bubble” (28:13)
  • What are the four specific elements within the EQ-i model whose job it is to bring us information? (Hile believes these are drastically underused!) (28:54)
  • Hile urges listeners to try out this actionable tip. (He says that if everyone were to do this, we’d very likely see significant positive change in the world!) (30:22)


About Hile Rutledge

OKA President Hile Rutledge is one of America’s most respected trainers in both the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator® (MBTI®) and the EQ-i® (Emotional Intelligence) assessment instruments.

He is the author of the MBTI® Introduction Workbook, the EQ Workbook, the Four Temperaments Workbook and co-author of the best-seller Type Talk at Work, as well as the creator of OKA online tutorials, videos and many other publications and training tools.

Hile’s primary area of expertise is the practical use of assessment tools in the development of self-awareness and improved self-management for leaders, teams and organizations.

In addition to MBTI and EQi, Hile is a master practitioner with the PMAI, SDI, TKI, KGI and many more instruments.

He is an expert consultant, trainer and keynote speaker with over 20 years’ experience in the organization development field.

Hile has done extensive work with Fortune 500 companies and most federal government departments, working with individuals and teams at all levels from C-suite to the front lines. Hile holds MSOD and BA degrees. He lives with his family in Falls Church, Virginia.


Episode 68 Hile Rutledge

Announcer: Welcome to the TalentGrow Show, where you can get actionable results-oriented insight and advice on how to take your leadership, communication and people skills to the next level and become the kind of leader people want to follow. And now, your host and leadership development strategist, Halelly Azulay.

Halelly: Welcome back TalentGrowers. This is Halelly Azulay, here at TalentGrow. I’m your leadership development strategist, and another episode of the TalentGrow Show. This time with my guest Hile Rutledge, president of OKA and one of America’s most respected trainers in both the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator and the EQ-i, or emotional intelligence assessment instrument. He was a mentor of mine. I learned a lot from him and I can’t wait for you to also learn from him all about emotional intelligence, the way in which we measure it, behavior cocktails that you can use to make yourself a better leader, and more emotionally intelligent and a very actionable tip that he recommends, that if everyone takes, the world will be a better place. How’s that? World change as a result of listening to the TalentGrow Show. Check it out.

Welcome back TalentGrowers. This is Halelly Azulay and I am here with a friend and a colleague and a mentor, Hile Rutledge. He is president of OKA, one of America’s most respected trainers in both the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator – also known as MBTI – and the EQ-i, which is an emotional intelligence assessment, and many, many other assessments. He’s the other of the MBTI introduction book, the EQ workbook, the Four Temperaments workbook and co-author of the best-seller type talk at work, which I use as a reference a lot. It’s a great book. As well as the creator of OKA online tutorials, videos and many other publications and training tools, and he is a master practitioner with MBTI, EQ-i. He has trained so many people, and in fact, he is the guy who certified me in both of those instruments, so I’ve had the pleasure of working with Hile and knowing Hile for a lot of years. Hile, I don’t know if you realize, but we first met when I was in your workshop in 2003.

Hile: I do remember that. I remember you sat over by the windows.

Halelly: Oh my God, you remember where I sat. That’s crazy. That was a long time ago! So thank you and welcome to the TalentGrow Show.

Hile: Halelly, thank you very much for having me a part of your podcast. I really look forward to chatting with you today.

Halelly: I appreciate you. Today we’re going to actually hone in on emotional intelligence, EQ, but before we do, I’d love for you to describe briefly your professional journey, just to give people a sense of where did you start and how did you get to where you are today?

Hile: It’s funny, like you did, I came through OKA as a participant to get my MBTI certification, back in the early 90’s, and it made such an impact on me that I started my own Type training consultancy. I didn’t even know that’s what I was doing, but I just started talking Myers-Briggs and Type to whoever would listen. I actually came back and became a trainer with OKA, so I was one of the associates on their bench, one of about 20. I was brought in in 1999, as the COO, as the leader of the place, to work with founder Otto Kroeger, toward his retirement. The first thing I did when I came in was, because we were a Type organization, we were a Myers-Briggs training firm and I really wanted to become a broader consultancy and I never trusted any consultancy that has only one tool, and so I started pushing out … it took a few years, but now we have and use and train others to use well over a dozen different tools now. We’re really thought leaders in the use of models and tools that lead to greater self awareness and better self management. That’s really what all of our work is about, is greater self awareness, leading to better self management. While Type is still very active with this, the emotional intelligence and the EQ-i specifically, became our most sought after and referenced tool, about three, almost four years ago. That’s kind of the cornerstone of our work these days.

Halelly: It is a really fascinating tool. I am personally super-fascinated by all of these models and theories and if I could just full-time study them, I probably would be a happy camper. I wanted to talk with you more about something that you discussed in a recent workshop I participated in. Again, I was able to learn from you. We both were speakers at a conference recently, the same conference, the ATD International Conference, and I went to your session and it was so interesting, the way that you described how lots of people are approaching emotional intelligence in a very report-centric way. You teach people how to administer these reports, and help people interpret these reports, but you’re saying that, thinking about the report and just low scores, high scores, what does it mean, is a mistake. And you’re making the case that it’s a better approach to learning and to using, really, emotional intelligence – EQ is short for emotional intelligence – is to pay more attention to the different EQ behaviors and blending and balancing them, in one direction, with another. I would really love to talk about that today. If you could just give us a top-level overview of what is behind this? What do you mean?

Hile: That’s tricky, especially given that the kind of leader that is involved here at TalentGrow, who tunes into the podcast, this is right in the sweet spot, the skillset, that these kind of leaders need. Emotional intelligence is so popular these days, and the EQ-i specifically as an assessment is so popular these days. Largely, ironically, because of the scores. People like the fact that their behavior can be quantified so specifically. We’re comparing how much, let’s say, empathy we have, and I get an 85 and you get a 105. But Sue, our colleague, gets a 130. So there’s a hardness to that and there’s a comfort in that. We can benchmark it, we can compare it and so I understand the appeal. But actually, looking at the actual numbers can be and is so often misleading. Frankly, I think that’s the least interesting and the least helpful thing about the report. I think what is more important is the relative score, the comparison. I don’t even really care what the number is, but I want to know this quality versus that one, how much are they compared to each other? Especially when we’re looking at two different kind of elements within the model that are kind of held in tension, complimentary or even opposing energies.

Within the EQ-i there are 16 different behaviors that are structured and defined. Rather than looking at each behavior as if it is a silo, and putting a score on it, then comparing it to the average person walking down the street, I think it is better to actually look at combinations of elements. The mixing and matching, seeing the tensions in them. In fact, I’ve come lately to talk about mixing a cocktail, although we’re talking about a cocktail of behaviors – a little of this, a little of that. When mixed just right, just like a good cocktail, it can be just the thing you need in that meeting, or in this difficult conversation that you’re having, or to manage yourself in any given situation. So, it’s that mixing and matching, blending of behavior cocktails that I think is where the gold is in this tool.

Halelly: Are the cocktails different for different people? In other words, is there sort of a one recipe that we all should strive for? Or is it more contextual and situational or individualized?

Hile: Interesting. So not only, that’s a great question, is it different for different people, it’s different for the same person topic to topic or group to group. Let’s get specific, for a minute. Let’s say there are two elements that we’ll start with, within the EQ-i model. One is independence. Independence is your ability, your tendency, to be self-directed in your thinking and in your feeling, having an inner compass that points to true north in terms of what you want, what you believe, what you value, and so you can go in one direction, even if the group is going in another. So independence. There’s another element within the model that’s interpersonal relationship. Interpersonal relationship is the degree to which you can craft and nurture a relationship within which trust and compassion reside. It’s building and nurturing a relationship that builds and grows trust and compassion.

So these are two different and very important elements, and they’re complimentary. Independence really defines itself as me within myself. Me, alone. Whereas interpersonal relationship really defines myself in relationship to you, the degree to which I connect with and care about you. So I care less about what number you got for either of those. I’m interested in comparing them to each other, to see when you come at me, when you engage me, do you come to this meeting, or do you come to this conversation, with more independence, more energy about standing alone, or more energy about connecting to and relating to me?

And so back to your question a few minutes ago, it might be that you, in general, in life, have more interpersonal relationship energy than independence, and I have more independence than interpersonal relationship. Perhaps we can look at people’s consistency over time. That’s an interesting thing to look at. Even within you, you as a manager, may very well have to stand up in front of a group and what you need most in that moment is independence. You need to hold your ground and have a sense of the truth and the direction you want, even in the face of the group coming back at you in disagreement. So you need your independence more than anything else right there. Then, you can pivot and a few moments later, and what you need is to cut some slack to craft some trust, to show some vulnerability, so that people will like you, and trust you. That’s a different skill, so you might need to toggle back and forth. Not only is this a way of comparing people to each other, this is a way of, it’s a skillset when you get the blends right to be able to shift from the needs of this moment to the needs of this next team engagement to the needs of this conflict I have to enter later on this afternoon. That’s this idea of kind of blending, shifting and mixing the cocktail.

Halelly: You know, I have to tell folks, if you ever get a chance to see Hile speak, he’s so engaging and funny and there were so many funny examples that you shared, I don’t even remember the specifics anymore. But some of the cocktails you described were particularly memorably funny. We don’t have to talk about what’s funny, but I’d love for you to describe a couple of the cocktails and tell us what’s important for us to take away from knowing this?

Hile: Another kind of cocktail that’s pretty interesting – and really relevant, really juicy for leaders to think about – is the relationship between independence, we talked about that one, and assertiveness. Assertiveness is another element within this model. Assertiveness is the degree to which you will put your ideas, your thoughts, your needs and opinions, out in the world, even when so doing is going to invite a little pushback. It’s going to create some conflict or pushback, even when doing so is not easy. Putting stake in the ground and defending that. In many people’s eyes, and in mine’s, independence and assertiveness are related. They’re cousins. And they frequently travel together. Independence is your internal knowing, your internal belief, your autonomous attachment to what you want, need or feel. Now, assertiveness is your voice, is you actually doing something about that, actually saying it and coming out in the world and acting on that belief. You can easily see how they’re connected and can be.

What’s interesting is to look at the blend of the cocktail of these two, because let’s say I come at the world with more independence than I have assertiveness. So whatever the number – doesn’t even really matter – if my independence outpaces my assertiveness, then the behavioral result of that is going to be kind of covert, slimy, kind of duplicitous. Because it’ll be clear that I have an idea. It’ll be clear that I have a goal or an opinion or a belief, but I won’t say it. I won’t come out and defend it. I won’t come out and argue or debate. So that can make me seem overly political, duplicitous, kind of slimy, perhaps. There’s a cost, and potentially a negative one and a big one, if my independence outpaces my assertiveness. However, we can flip that coin. If your assertiveness outpaces your independence, again, it’s not about the number. It’s about just comparing this blend in this cocktail here. If my assertiveness outpaces my independence, that’s somebody that will come in and engage and argue and debate and beyond the point at which they believe or care about what they’re saying. This is the good soldier cocktail, or the gun for hire cocktail that I will go and fight for whatever you tell me to go and fight for. That’s just one pairing that you can look at, and this whole model – there’s 16 – and there are a number of blends in there that can be really interesting and give you lots of nice access to this tool.

Halelly: The top three, I think you were speaking about, during your workshop? Big three, I forget how you describe it. Can you speak to those?

Hile: The big three. That is one of the kind of juiciest sub parts of this tool, is that there are, within this model, there are actually three. So 16 in all, but there are three that are of particular power and they’re interrelated, that statistically, psychometrically, they’re tied together. What you score on one of them, you tend to score close to that on the other ones, statistically speaking. Each one is very dependent on the other two. Those three are self regard – the degree to which I see myself, all my good qualities and bad qualities and in light of that I still see myself as a good likeable person – so self regard; self actualization – that’s to the degree of which I set a goal and strive toward its completion. The key there is not in the goal, it’s in the striving. It’s in the wanting something. It’s where ambition lives and wanting to move forward. In fact, this is a podcast focusing in on leadership issues and done for leaders, self actualization is of all the EQ elements is the one most associated with leadership, because it’s self actualization that is your engine forward. And then last of the big three is optimism. That’s your ability to see the future and see the future as a place of hope, a place that’s going to contain a win for you or at least it might.

Self regard, self actualization and optimism, in a way, are braided together. Even though they’re three distinct things, each one relies on the other two and feeds the other two. The idea being that whatever, like for instance, if my optimism is low, well, then I look to the future and I don’t see a win there. In fact, the future seems pretty dim, pretty bleak, and as a result I don’t try, so then my self actualization is pulled downwardly. Why would I strive if I already can see the future and I know it won’t work out? We know through research that nothing affects negatively my self regard more than my not achieving any goals. Of course I’m not going to achieve a goal if I don’t even try. My self regard takes a hit, and with low self regard, I see the future as being even more burdensome. So the three of those can have this downward spiral, each pulling the other one like crabs in a pot downwardly. But, that can flip the other way as well, though. If my optimism is high, so I look to the future and I see that the future might work for me, so therefore the door is open for me to try. It makes sense for me to strive and give it a shot. We know through research also that nothing affects my self regard better, more positively, than my setting a goal and striving toward its completion. And so if I set a goal and I strive and I get it and I feel better about myself, which makes me feel better about my future, so the optimism, and then so all three of those as a blend can work upwardly, too.

One of the things I look at first when I look at the EQ-i is to look at the big three – self regard, self actualization and optimism. Not only do I want to see the scores on the higher end, it really helps if that’s true, but I take a look at the tension between the blend of the three of them, because they almost work together to create a foundation for our well being in general.

Halelly: Interesting. It’s almost like a vicious or a virtuous cycle, depending on which direction they’re moving in.

Hile: Yes, exactly. In fact, one of the things, so the idea of if it’s negative, it does become vicious, and the idea is how do we break this? How do we stop this? What you want to do is actually create that virtuous cycle so you can create some momentum. Effectively working EQ does really create this positive self feeding energy forward.

Halelly: So let’s dig in on that a little bit. Let’s just say I’m a leader, I have a sense or I get an actual report that shows me that in relationship, all of those scores are low compared to one another or that one is particularly low? What am I looking for as a sign, and then more importantly, what should I do?

Hile: Here’s the key, and now you don’t need to come to OKA, to my facility, to be taught this, but good EQ training will teach you that while the tool is effective and rich, it’s too much. It’s just too much data. 16 elements and all of these kind of combinations can be overwhelming when you first see it. The challenge is to help people realize what’s working well for you – and everybody has something that’s working well. Maybe it's a high score, maybe it’s something I feel like I can do, I understand it, so let’s find two or three things that are strengths that are working for you. Then of the 15 elements here that we’re going to focus in on, what are the two or three with which you struggle. This could be a got a low score in them. It could be that I’m particularly dependent upon it for my job and it doesn’t come easily to me. There’s lots of reasons we could help to choose it, but let’s pick one, to the exclusion of the others, let’s pick one. Maybe that’s impulse control, my ability to kind of hold my tongue and resist doing something. Maybe it’s empathy, the degree to which I connect and pay attention to, show sensitivity to you. Whatever it is, I’m going to pick one or two, and then pull those on board and now let’s actually engage some activities. We teach you a lot and part of the training is teaching you how to even come up with more on your own, but activities that will actually work that.

Let’s say you and I were working together and you decided you wanted to work on your empathy. What we would do is focus in on finding some actions that actually reinforce that empathy. Just like going to the gym and working a particular set of machines to target a muscle group that needed to be rehabbed or developed. The same thing is true of empathy. Let’s come up with things that you can do to make that actionable, to get muscle memory at being more empathic. What that is, it’s not slogans. “Just be nice to people, embrace the world.” We’re actually looking at, “I’m going to do this particular action with John in the meeting on Tuesday,” and let’s actually practice that. What’s that going to look like? What’s that going to sound like? You get very behavioral, very tactical.

Here’s the cool thing – I’m only working empathy. Maybe I had lots of stuff that I could/should have worked on, but we’re only targeting empathy here. That feels doable, but you know coach, behind the curtain, that even though we’re working namely on empathy, one of the elements very close to empathy in the model is interpersonal relationship. We talked about that, building trust and compassion. So it turns out our working on empathy is also going to exercise my interpersonal relationship, and yield benefits there. By the way, our doing this, we’re setting a goal and working on that goal, so self actualization takes a jump up, which by the way directly feeds self regard and boosts my optimism. There are even other elements that we won’t get into here, but my doing anything is going to exercise behind the curtain multiple EQ elements. That means even though we’re looking at only improving this one thing, I actually have this ripple effect on my behavior across the board. So not that it’s easy work, but this is a tool that can actually produce noticeable results in a hurry, which is also nice for leaders to have.

Halelly: Nice. I really like what I’m hearing in there, especially because when you describe the big three, they sound a little bit esoteric, and even a little bit … maybe if you’re talking to a very kind of tactical leader, someone that really wants to get in the weeds or be very applied about this and you’re going to talk to me about self actualization and self regard, forget it. But, by choosing something else to work on that they can see the value in it, that maybe their score was relatively low on it, and also by limiting the scope to just one thing, which makes it something they’re willing to approach, you can in directly help them work on things they either aren’t willing or open to thinking about, or that would not be a good place to start. I guess that’s kind of where I’m getting.

Hile: I think that’s absolutely right. I mean, I think that’s a really sharp thing to notice, that sometimes we can have such a hard time grabbing some of these, like self regard. That can be such a sensitive place if I don’t think I’m worthy – I’m not smart enough, I don’t like myself or my body or my contributions. And that’s such a sensitive thing to touch and look at and talk about. So instead, let’s ignore that. Actually, you coach aren’t ignoring it, but it’s not in our conversation. And let’s work on empathy, let’s working flexibility or something else. By so doing, you’re pulling my self regard into the process without paying attention to it, so I can actually do some exercising of it without having to directly touch that very hot bundle of nerves.

Halelly: I love it. So what do you think is the biggest opportunity for leaders using this kind of an approach to development?

Hile: Actually, I think using this tool and this approach to this tool means – and some people are disappointed at first to hear this – but if we’re de-emphasizing –

Halelly: Why?

Hile: What I’m about to say, if we’re de-emphasizing the actual score, what that actually means is that there is no perfect score. Sometimes people enter into this tool, wanting to know, “What’s the highest score I can get without it being too high? Because what I really want is a gold star. I want something that shows that I’m done, that I’m really cool.” And while I totally understand the motivation, this really isn’t a tool that does this. If we’re talking about blending and flexing and mixing the cocktail of being able to flex the cocktail in the personal space, what that means is that everybody always has something to work on. Because it’s about balance, I’m never finished. Because I have a beautiful balance conversation with you, but then I turn around and deal with an employee and actually I mix the wrong cocktail. So that is very empowering, but it also means that we always have work to do. So I think that is a great insight, and some people are encouraged and empowered by that, and also feel exhausted by that. That’s our lives as leaders.

Halelly: Well, yeah. Gosh, sometimes it is hard to recognize how complex life in general is, and certainly being a leader is one of the most complex jobs you could possibly want or not want. Interesting. Thank you. We could talk about this for hours and hours, but I know we need to start wrapping up. So before you share one really specific and very actionable tip with our listeners, what’s something that’s exciting on your horizon? What’s got you energized these days?

Hile: Well, actually – and it grows out of not only an issue that is alive in our businesses and our business world today, but it’s alive in our nation and I think in our world – we seem to be so, as people, we seem to be so entrenched in our own bubbles these days. Social media has made that even worse. We seek out the news we want, we hang around and live and work with people who are far more alike us than not. We’re just really in our bubble. It’s becoming one of my personal drives to pop people’s bubbles, and more specifically, to encourage people to pop their own. From an EQ perspective, there are four elements, and I won’t go real deeply into them, but there are four elements within the model whose job it is to bring us information, to input new data. There’s emotional self awareness, empathy, reality testing and flexibility. Four specific elements that are specifically about gathering data and change. And I think these happen to be four drastically underused elements for many, many people. For us collectively in the United States, we tend not to be very good at these particular four. And so one of the things that I am eager to help people do is to gather more data and get out of your bubble.

Halelly: Very cool. Maybe we should have a round two one day and talk about that more specifically. That sounds exciting. What’s something that listeners can do, take action on, that’s super concrete and specific, that can help them improve their own emotional intelligence or leadership that they can just do this afternoon or this week? What do you suggest?

Hile: That’s a great question, a great task. Here’s some things and I think it would help not only deepen their own emotional intelligence, it would also help with what I just talked about in terms of popping your own bubble. So, I would urge people to talk to somebody with whom you disagree. Whatever is going on in the news, some hot button issue or whatever. Talk with somebody that you don’t have a lot in common with, that you disagree. And just try and understand them about that. Ask them questions and try to not convince them of anything new, just try to understand. Stretch your mind to an idea or an opinion you don’t have. Gather new data. What I would urge you to do is to find something today and change your mind about it. Inhale new data and change your mind. It’s something that too few of us do on a regular basis, and that’s something that would activate, like a pinball machine, that would activate you all along this emotional intelligence model.

Halelly: I love it. It’s like shifting your mental model from how can I be right to how could I be wrong? Very interesting.

Hile: Yeah. I think that would be a great action. If every one of us did that, we would see a drastic change and good ones too.

Halelly: Amen. I love it. Hile, I appreciate that you came on the TalentGrow Show and shared your insight with listeners. I know that they’re clamoring for more, so how can they stay in touch with you and learn more about and from you?

Hile: I would love to talk to people or hear from them. Our website is oka-online.com. They can come see me at oka-online.com. I keep a blog there that has a number of topics about type and EQ and other leadership-related topics, and that always invites people to give me their thoughts, their questions and spark a discussion. So online would be a great way to get in touch with me personally, or just tap into some of the work we’re doing.

Halelly: Awesome. And do you hang out on social media at all? Any place on social media you like people to connect with you?

Hile: We have LinkedIn groups and we have a Facebook presence that we monitor, so Facebook and LinkedIn. In fact, signing up for Twitter, LinkedIn, Facebook, all of those you can do right from our website as well, so that will make it easy. That’s a good starting point for any of that.

Halelly: Excellent. I will definitely link to all of that in the show notes. Thank you so much for your time today. I always enjoy speaking with you. I hope that people enjoyed it as well and appreciate your wisdom.

Hile: Thank you, it was a pleasure.

Halelly: What did I tell you, are we achieving world peace with this tip or what? Well, I know I’m kind of laughing at it, but I think it really would help and since here we are at the end of the year, if you’re listening to this show in real time as it’s published, it’s the end of 2017, and as we celebrate the holidays and try to bring light and joy and cheer to everyone around us, listening to people a little bit more – especially if they don’t seem to agree with you – I think is a very nice way to get in better relationships, no matter who it is you’re speaking with. As you’re thinking about maybe some resolutions for the New Year, maybe this could be part of your New Year’s resolution, who knows.

I have exciting news – TalentGrowers, you might not know this, but I’ve been talking about it on the private Facebook group that we have for the TalentGrowers community. If you’re not a member, you should hop on over and join us, because it is open to anyone who is a listener of the show, and I did tell everyone there that I am planning to move to a weekly podcast format in 2018. So, right now, I publish on the second and fourth Tuesday of every month, and we’re going to move to every Tuesday. Every Tuesday, you can get an episode of the TalentGrow Show to listen to. I hope that if you haven’t already, that you subscribe so that way you never miss an episode, and that you download my free 10 Mistakes that Leaders Make tool, so that you can avoid making those mistakes and also stay in touch with me via my exciting, informal, funny and fun and useful newsletter every week.

I wish you a very happy new year coming up. Happy holidays. I’m so thankful that you are here and listening to me, and on this journey with me, and until the next time, make today great.

Announcer: Thanks for listening to the TalentGrow Show, where we help you develop your talent to become the kind of leader that people want to follow. For more information, visit TalentGrow.com.

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