145: How to Boost Innovation in Your Organization through the Same Side Selling Model with Ian Altman

Ep145 how to boost innovation in your organization through same side selling Ian Altman TalentGrow Show with Halelly Azulay

Innovation is crucial to the success of any organization. Yet, it is too often stifled by an outmoded approach to pitching and collaborating on new ideas. Best-selling author and leading authority on accelerating business growth Ian Altman joins me on this episode of The TalentGrow show to share his collaborative and integrity-based approach to selling and innovation called Same Side Selling. Discover the four components to a great pitch, constructive conversations leaders can have with team members who are pitching new ideas, and how Same Side Selling discards the harmful, zero-sum models of selling in favor of a collaborative, win-win approach. Plus, learn the four questions you should ask yourself (or someone else) to vet any new idea in your organization! Tune in and don’t forget to share this episode with others.


As a CEO for two decades, Ian started, sold, and grew his business-services and technology companies from zero to over one billion dollars in value. Ian has since spent years researching how customers make decisions. His modern approach to sales & marketing is known for helping organizations around the world achieve explosive growth. A leading authority on accelerating business growth, Ian is currently recognized as one of the 30 Global Gurus on Sales.

He’s a co-author of the bestselling book, Same Side Selling and hosts the weekly Same Side Selling podcast available on iTunes. And you can read hundreds of his articles on Forbes and Inc. Ian lives in the Washington DC area with his two adult-ish children, a dog, and his wonderful wife.


  • Why should we always vet our initiatives before we decide whether to pitch them in the first place? (5:51)

  • Ian explains the four components to a great pitch, known as the ‘same side quadrants,’ and how to use this frame to effectively evaluate new ideas (8:38)

  • What does ‘same side selling’ mean? Ian contrasts it with the way that selling is too often portrayed (10:37)

  • Ian elaborates further on how to use the quadrants effectively (13:18)

  • Ian shares another quick tip for pitching ideas (16:23)

  • With the same side model, how do you deal with competitive pitches within an organization? Ian shares a real example (17:41)

  • As a leader, here is a constructive dialogue you can have with someone whose idea you don’t think is viable (21:14)

  • What’s new and exciting on Ian’s horizon? (23:28)

  • One specific action you can take to ratchet up your selling and leadership skills (24:39)



Episode 145 Ian Altman

TEASER CLIP: Ian: We’ve all been in meetings where somebody raises an idea and half the people in the room have this look on their face that, if it was a cartoon, there would be a bubble over their head that says, “Why are we talking about this? I thought we had a drug policy. This isn’t right!” It’s like someone comes up with an idea and you’re convinced they must be living on another planet.

[MUSIC] Announcer: Welcome to the TalentGrow Show, where you can get actionable results-oriented insight and advice on how to take your leadership, communication and people skills to the next level and become the kind of leader people want to follow. And now, your host and leadership development strategist, Halelly Azulay.

Halelly: Hey, hey TalentGrowers. Welcome back to another episode of the TalentGrow Show. I’m Halelly Azulay, your leadership development strategist here at TalentGrow and I know how sometimes you have a great idea, but you can’t get other people to buy into it? Or you have people on your team who keep coming up with an idea a minute and it’s hard for you to figure out are those ideas good ones or are these people taking me on a wild ride that’s wasting time and resources? So this week my guest Ian Altman is going to help you sort through those kinds of questions with practical, actionable ideas and answers, based on his best-selling book Same Side Selling, and the businesses that he has built and how he helps people sell their products, sell their ideas, sell themselves, sell their initiatives. I think that you’re going to love his four quadrant template that you’re going to now be able to use going forward if you listen to this show that will help you vet ideas, prioritize initiatives and get buy-in. Let’s take a listen.

TalentGrowers, Ian Altman is on the show. As a CEO for two decades, Ian started, sold and grew his business services and technology companies from zero to over $1 billion in value. Ian has since spent years researching how customers make decisions. His modern approach to sales and marketing is known for helping organizations around the world achieve explosive growth. A leading authority on accelerating business growth, Ian is recognized as one of the 30 global gurus on sales. He is co-author of the best-selling book which was just re-released, Same Side Selling, and hosts the weekly Same Side Selling podcast available on iTunes. You can read hundreds of his articles on Forbes and Inc. Ian lives in the Washington, D.C. area where we first met with his two adult-ish children, a dog and his wonderful wife. And, I’m really glad that Ian has come on the show. Actually, it was at the suggestion of a previous guest, Laura Gassner Otting, but Ian and I actually met a long time ago through our mutual colleague Derek Coburn who was on episode 40 and talked about why networking is not working. I’m really glad that Ian has agreed to come on the show and we are not going to talk about selling products, but we are going to talk about selling your ideas. Ian, welcome to the TalentGrow Show.

Ian: Thank you so much for having me here.

Halelly: I’m really glad you’ve come by. I know you’re really busy with a book launch and everything. Before we get started talking about your insights that our listeners can use, I always ask my guests to describe their professional journey. Where did you start and how did you end up where you are today, briefly?

Ian: It’s interesting, because the first company I started, I started it when I was working at another company and there were business opportunities where the company could grow and they didn’t want to pursue it. The guy I worked for at the time, a gentleman named Bob Procelli said, “What are you frustrated about?” I laid it out and said, “There’s got to be a half a million to a million dollars a year of business here that the company just won’t let me pursue,” and he said, “Why don’t you go do it?” I said, “I don’t have permission.” He said, “I don’t mean here. I mean why don’t you go do it.” So I started my first company in 1993. We became a Fast 50 company by 1998, one of the 50 fastest growing companies in the Washington D.C. area. During those first five years, I think it was about year two or three, I actually hired Bob as my COO, kind of funny. We then started a software company, grew both companies to the point that in 2005, a group of investment bankers out of New York acquired my company for cash and stock. They asked me to serve as managing director of the parent company which the combined value of the companies at the time was about $100 million. Over the next three years, we grew the value to just over $2 billion, actually, and we expanded to all these countries around the world through a global licensing program.

I wasn’t spending the time I wanted to with my wife or with our kids, and I thought, “I’m kind of burned out. I’m really not enjoying this anymore.” So I went to the board and said I was done. They said, “What do you mean you’re done? What are you going to do?” I said I didn’t know. I sat with a bunch of friends over a dinner – invited a bunch of friends to dinner and said, “I resigned. I’ve got to figure out what I’m going to do.” And they said, “Most people figure out what they’re going to do first. You idiot!” Fortunately I’d done well enough in the exit that it didn’t really matter. I said, “I’m just trying to figure it out,” and three or four of them said, “Anytime our businesses were struggling, you seemed to be more excited about fixing our businesses than your own.” I said, “Yeah, that’s a lot of fun,” and they said, “Why don’t you help people do that?” I said, “Do what?” And they said, “Help other businesses.” And I said, “People do that?” I had never used outside resources in my businesses and that was about 11 years ago and now I travel around the world and obviously do a lot of writing and speaking about how people grow their businesses with integrity and whether they are selling ideas internally or externally, it’s all the same principles and how people make and approve decisions.

Halelly: Well congratulations on all your success. It’s really very impressive and kudos. Just as you said, we are selling all the time, whether we’re selling products, services, our company, selling our ideas, we’re selling initiatives, we’re selling ourselves, we’re selling our teams. So, I know that there is so much you can talk about here, but I would love for you to tell us a little more about why you say that you should always vet our initiatives before we even decide whether to pitch it in the first place?

Ian: What happens is often times we get what appears to be a great idea. And we haven’t yet thought through its relative priority. We haven’t really thought through certain key issues that have to do with how people make and approve decisions. I’ve done this research with over 10,000 executives around the world on how they make and approve decisions. The questions that people ask come down to three areas. I run people through this exercise that I’ve done a gazillion times, which is I explain to them, “Someone on your team comes to you and they have this idea, something they want to spend money on. They say it costs $20,000, takes 45 days to implement it, requires no resources whatsoever on our part and the vendor gives us a 10 year guarantee. What are the five questions you have to ask to be comfortable making an informed decision to approve or deny their request?” I put people in teams to do that. At the end of that exercise, I ask them to pull together just their top three. And no matter what the size the business is, no matter where it is in the world, I get the same three questions every single time. The three questions are, “What problem does this solve? Why do we need it? What’s the likely outcome or result if we make this investment?”

The reason why I say you have to vet your ideas before you present them is, if you don’t know the answers to those questions, if you haven’t thought about, “What problem are we actually trying to solve with this initiative that I’m pursuing and what happens if we don’t solve this?” Meaning, why do we need to do this, because the converse is what happens if we don't? And then if we do this, then what do we get out of it? If you haven’t thought through that, somewhere along the way it’s going to crash and burn, but if you thought through it, you’re making it so much easier for other people to buy into your idea, because they say, “Oh, you just landed a perfect business case. Here’s the problem we have. Here’s what happens if we don’t solve it. Which now I understand why we can’t do nothing, and you’ve explained to me what the likely result is if we make this investment. Wow, that’s a really smart idea.” It prevents us as leaders from crying wolf too often. So we don’t come in and say, “Oh, here’s this great initiative,” and then it gets picked apart. And then, “Here’s this other great initiative.” Oh, that gets picked apart. If we’ve thought through it well, then it inspires confidence from the people who we report to and it inspires confidence from the teams that we’re leading.

Halelly: You can teach this kind of thinking to your team and you’re helping to grow their decision-making abilities as well.

Ian: It’s fascinating. This concept, there’s really four components of it. I mentioned this idea of, “What’s the underlying issue or what problem are we trying to solve? What’s the impact of not solving the issue and what’s its relative importance?” Then we have, “What are the likely results,” and there’s another component of this which is, “Who else is impacted? Who else gains the most if we’re successful?” And those four areas, if you will, are what we refer to as the same side quadrant. We talk about it in Same Side Selling, and the idea is that it’s a method for taking notes. We built it originally for salespeople when they’re in a meeting with customers to focus on what’s really going to be important for that customer. And then we didn’t intentionally do it this way, but all the sudden we had clients who were ordering, “Can we get 25 of these journals?” “Wow, I didn’t think the sales team was that big.” “No, no, we’re using it internally. This is the way we evaluate projects now.” It just gives a structure.

So the idea is visually, you take a blank sheet of paper, a vertical line down the center and horizontal line down the center, creating four quadrants. You take your notes in the upper left corner about the issue that you’re trying to solve. The upper right quadrant you make notes about what happens if we don’t solve it? What’s the impact and relative importance of this compared to other things? In the lower left you take notes about the results that you are looking to achieve and you expect to achieve through this, and the lower right you take notes about who else needs to be involved or who else is impacted in the organization. If you get that, it’s a beautiful template for what amounts to a business case. Now, if I take that information and summarize it, that’s the definition of a business case.

Halelly: Oh, I love it! By the way we mentioned the name of your book and you said this is a process and you call it same side selling. Probably be good for us to define, what do you mean by same side selling?

Ian: So in same side selling, for starters, I wrote the book with a gentleman named Jack Quarles, who you may have met as well. Jack is a guy who spent two decades in purchasing and procurement. So as far as we know, this is the first book related to selling, written by somebody on the buying side as well as the selling side. Most every book that’s ever been written about sales either uses a game metaphor, where there’s a winner and loser and a team, or it’s a battle metaphor and in that case the loser dies. And then we wonder why we create this adversarial tension between buyers and sellers. The metaphor that we talk about in Same Side Selling is more of a puzzle metaphor that says I’ve got puzzle pieces. The other people have puzzle pieces. Our job is to sit side-by-side and collaboratively figure out if our puzzle pieces are a fit. If they are, that’s great, and if they’re not, it doesn’t mean they’re the enemy or there’s something wrong. It just means we don’t have a fit.

Just like anything else, for example, if I’m looking to bring on a new employee, it shouldn’t be this notion of, “Do I approve this person or not?” It should be a joint meeting in the minds of, “What are the questions I can ask so we can determine if there’s a good fit? Because if there is a good fit, they’re probably going to be an employee here for a long time. And if they’re not a good fit, we’re going to get sucked into the vortex of evil.” So we want to make sure we don’t go down that path. It’s just about finding the right fit. It’s not about persuasion or coercion. It’s just getting to the truth.

Halelly: And how you describe this is similar to the ideas that I share about creating mutually beneficial connection, a win-win. So you’re not looking to do something at the expense of the other, which is what you were describing in those metaphors, where it’s a zero-sum game. Somebody wins and somebody by definition loses, and this is not how this works.

Ian: It’s exactly right. The subtitle of the book is “How integrity and collaboration drive extraordinary results for sellers and buyers.” The idea is that it’s just about if we collaborate together, we get a better outcome, and it’s funny because in most books that talk about sales at any level, there’s usually a notion of, “Now that you’ve learned this, try it out on your client.” So there’s this notion of, “You’re going to do something to them,” instead of, “Here’s a model in how you can engage people in a conversation to reach a joint conclusion.”

Halelly: I like it. So, you also said that you have lots of practical ways to help us get more buy-in for our ideas. I guess the quadrant was super practical and I like it a lot. Are there other tricks or techniques that you can share today?

Ian: The quadrant is one that’s very powerful, because if you think about it, most times what happens is when someone is trying to get buy-in for an idea – and this could be from team members or could be from someone from whom you’re seeking approval – it’s usually, “Here’s this thing I want to do,” and there’s almost a random process people follow to asking questions or trying to figure out where this fits in the priority scheme. As opposed to if we know how people make decisions, which is what problem does it solve, why do I need it, what’s the likely outcome or results, then what if we just present information with that template in mind? Now we say, “Here’s a problem we’re trying to solve. Here’s why we can’t live without solving it, and here’s the likely outcome or result. By the way, here are the alternatives we considered and this is why we selected this one.” It makes it much easier for people to be bought in.

Another way is when we’re trying to get buy-in from our team members, you can walk through this same model with them. Instead of saying, “Here’s the impact of not solving this,” you say, “Okay, here’s this initiative that so-and-so brought to us. Let’s all put our heads together. What happens if we don’t solve that?” And then what happens is, people are either going to convince each other that this really needs to be done, or there’s going to be a meeting of the minds that says, “This doesn’t need to be done.” Either one is an okay outcome, because all we’re trying to do is get to the truth. It’s not like, “I have this idea and I need to get buy-in, because I know my idea is great.” We have to have enough humility to say, “I have an idea that I think is great, and I want to have a dialogue with everybody around these quadrants to see whether or not it is in fact a great idea.” When everyone is nodding their head and says, “Yup, that’s the problem we’re trying to solve. You’ve convinced me of why it’s so important to solve it, and I’m convinced we’re going to get this outcome or result and all the people who need to be involved are here, man, this is great. Let’s move forward.” That’s how we get buy-in, because otherwise what happens is, we’ve all been in meetings where somebody raises an idea and half the people in the room have this look on their face that, if it was a cartoon, there would be a bubble over their head that says, “Why are we talking about this? I thought we had a drug policy. This isn’t right!” It’s like someone comes up with an idea and you’re convinced they must be living on another planet. This gives us a framework to actually make that very easy.

Halelly: Well, definitely if you follow your quadrant model, then you can help burst those question bubbles for people before they go too far with it. Even for a legitimately great idea, sometimes people just don’t see it or don’t get it. You helped them understand it better and really think about it front and back and sideways and all around, but it also helps us from just chasing cool, neat or whatever momentary idea somebody had in the shower that morning and wasting a bunch of time and resources.

Ian: The other model that helps people kind of go down a path with you is often times what we do is we think about the step we’re at right now. But what if we mapped out with somebody, let’s say there’s some initiative we’re trying to sell internally. Might be trying to get buy-in from team members, from colleagues, whoever. We’re usually focused at the step we’re at right now. But what if we said to them, “There are four steps going forward. Right now we’re at step one. Assuming we’re all bought into step one, here’s what’ll happen at step two, three and four, and by four we’re either all agreeing moving forward down this path or we kill the idea.” If we lay it out that way then everyone has a common expectation, so they don’t leave the meeting saying, “What happens next?” Too often, we just think one step ahead instead of thinking like we’re playing chess and thinking, “Where do we want to be four steps from now?”

Halelly: What are some same side conversations that people can have with people on their team, let’s say, or maybe it might be some colleagues that are vying for the same type of time or resource that we all know is not an infinite number of resources, time, money. You’re comparing yourself to others or your bosses, your leaders, are comparing your ideas and your initiatives and your teams to others, sometimes, for decisions of where to put the resources. What are some of the same side conversations you can have with people on your team or to your sides?

Ian: Often times when we get people with competing interests, all trying in essence to achieve the same result, when we can pull them together in tandem, help make decisions about priorities, it works pretty well, I remember I worked in a hospitality group at one point years ago, and we had a general manager who had left and I was kind of in a board position overseeing this group where I had no experience running these organizations. People said, “We really need to improve our service in the restaurants.” I said, “What’s everyone tried before?” They’d go to the wait staff and say, “You need to do this, this and that,” and it never gets done. I said, “That’s interesting.” So I sat down with the whole wait staff, all the servers together, and I said, “Okay, imagine if you were someone coming into our dining room. Can everyone come up with a list of two or three things that, man, if we could do those things, it would make a huge difference for them?” You can imagine with a team of 15 people, there were like 25 or 30 unique ideas across all of them.

I put people in little groups and said, “Now I want you to prioritize these and each group come up with your top four or five.” Then we pulled them all together and said, “For this week, what should be the top three,” and even the person who came up with, let’s say, idea number five, would say, “You know what? I think idea three should be a higher priority than five.” And I’d say, “We’re going to focus on these three this week. By the way, how are we going to measure that, to know that we did it?” And people would own and come up with their own method for measuring it to ensure they actually did it. Guess what? They owned it and loved it and then two weeks later would say, “Let’s go back to that list. What are the next three we should do?” And it made it so that instead of everyone saying, “This was my idea,” they all had a meeting of the minds and said, “I think it makes more sense for us to do these three and then these other three second.” It was fascinating because we never had an issue where somebody was stuck on the fact that their idea wasn’t in the top three. Collaboratively they’d look at each other and say, “It’s probably more important that they get greeted quickly than we tell them where the spinach came from. Yeah, probably a good idea.”

Halelly: So I hear you saying that people are more able to move forward with the best idea, rather than vying for their idea to be the best idea when they’re involved and they are engaged in this kind of a process of collaborating on something together?

Ian: The idea is what we’re doing is we’re putting people in a scenario to solve a puzzle together and to respect each other’s ideas. We’re not saying, “Oh, your idea isn’t a good one and this idea is a good one.” We’re just saying, “We have to choose which three ideas are going to move the needle and which ones we should focus on today.” It doesn’t mean we’re never going to focus on the other ones, but which three should we focus on today?

Halelly: So how did it impact the sales in that restaurant? I’m curious.

Ian: It was less about the sales and more about the experience. It made it so that people said, “Wow, I don’t know what’s different, but this is great.” The interesting part is that in many of the ideas that the team came up with, they’d been ideas that the prior managers were trying to impose on them for years, and they wouldn’t do it. But when the team came up with the ideas, and the team identified the priorities, it worked really well. There were times where people on the team would say, “Oh, we think we should do this first.” And I knew that probably wasn’t going to be a good idea. And I couldn’t say, “That’s probably a stupid idea,” because then we’re going to shut down the whole dialogue. So instead, I’d look at them and say, “Okay, so compared to these other things, let’s imagine that you’re a diner that just came in here. Which of those two do you think would have a bigger impact and why?” All the sudden they’d go, “Oh, in that case, it’s probably the other thing.” “Okay, you sure?” “Yeah.” “Great.” And so it’s always a matter of if we ask the right questions, people will get to the right answer. We’ve just got to help them think through it sometimes and I always say in the sales side of the world that effective selling is not about persuasion, it’s not about coercion. It’s about getting to the truth as quickly as possible. It’s the same thing in any business interaction.

Halelly: Like in coaching for example, too. People think they’re asking you for advice. Tell me what to do. As a coach or manager or leader who wants to be coach-like, the knee-jerk reaction is to spoon-feed them the answer, and the best reaction is to help ask them powerful questions that help them discover the answer. I have a blog post I’ll share in the show notes that I wrote that says, “People love your idea way better when it’s their idea.”

Ian: Absolutely. It’s absolutely true and my friend Michael Bungay Stanier, he wrote The Coaching Habit, Michael has some great questions that he asks and I always love that when people come to him and they want to solve something, Michael asks questions like, “So what’s the first idea you have on how you’re going to solve this?” Which just implies that I’m not accepting one ideas. You better have multiple ideas. And then whatever idea they come up with, he goes, “Great. And what else?”

Halelly: I love him. Michael Bungay Stanier was episode 31. It was one of the popular episodes and he’s a fabulous guy. I love it that we both know him and that can be something you can listen to next, TalentGrowers! After this one, if you haven’t already. So, Ian, we’re quickly running toward the end of our time together and I want to make sure that as we always do, we provide our listeners with one specific actionable tip. But before that, what’s new and exciting on your horizon?

Ian: Obviously the book just came out, so the second edition of Same Side Selling – that would be the newest and most exciting. The part that’s really interesting is we’re building out something called the Same Side Learning Center. The idea is that it’s a whole learning center filled with videos that will be launching later this year that is intended to reinforce concepts for teams. It’s exciting for me because that notion of reinforcing education for people is so important and it’s something that people have been asking for and we didn’t have it. We’ve been investing pretty heavily in that to make sure that we can help support people in their ongoing reinforcement.

Halelly: Cool. That is exciting. That’s a lot of work.

Ian: It is a lot of work, but I think it’ll pay off for people. We give people all these tools to practice and reinforce the different skills and behaviors that I teach, and if we can provide some of that electronically so that people can, while they’re sitting at home, while they’re on a commute, it’s just going to make life much better for them and help them get even faster results.

Halelly: Which is awesome. I love that you have specific and actionable ideas already, and we always leave our listeners with something that they can do today, tomorrow, this week, that’s going to help ratchet up their own success from a leadership perspective or in this case maybe from a more influencing perspective. What would that be?

Ian: Across organizations, the people who are often seen as the most valuable are the people who can not only lead in their own departments and areas, but can have a positive impact on how a business grows. And if people can get to the point that they realize that sales is not a dirty word, that you can actually do this stuff with integrity, then the people that can lead a team operationally and can help grow a business always have tremendous value. I guess the biggest thing is, just look at this notion of sales and selling with an open mind. Recognize that we’re always selling, whether it’s an idea or trying to bring on a candidate or help somebody be more productive, we’re always trying to help people get to a better place and that’s really, if you do it right, what selling is.

Halelly: Why do you think it has such a bad rap?

Ian: Because there are millions of people who, deservedly, helped it earn a bad reputation because there have been people for years who have taught deceptive practices and devious techniques and it’s kind of like the force in Star Wars, only there are people that are teaching for years the dark side. The idea is that there’s a small number of us who focus on everything being integrity-based, and there are organizations where you would have to drag somebody across a field of broken glass to get them to participate in a sales environment, because of their perception of what selling is all about. You think about it, if you walk in a stores, the hyper-ambitious salesperson says, “May I help you?” What’s the most likely response? “No thanks. Just looking.” How did that happen? Because we’ve come to not trust the people who have a sales role because they’re usually looking out for their own interests, not ours. If we pivot that, so that we’re always looking at what’s in the best interest of our customers, what’s in the best interest of a candidate, what’s in the best interests of our colleagues and peers and our customers, then it never has to feel slimy. It always feels like we’re operating with the utmost of integrity.

Halelly: Right. Well, thank you for sharing that. I agree. And I think that is going to be hopefully helpful for many people who do have that kind of a preconceived notion. I talk about networking in a very similar way, so we are 100 percent in agreement about integrity. It’s the only way to do anything. I know people are going to want to learn more from you, get all of that great online learning that you’re creating. We’ll link to your book. What’s the best place for people to follow you on social media? What’s the best place for people to learn more from you and about you?

Ian: IanAltman is where you’ll find me on social media, and IanAltman.com. Everything about the book is at SameSideSelling.com. It’s filled with a whole bunch of case studies that you get on SameSideSelling.com and videos and all sorts of things that give you a sense of what the book is about, even without buying it.

Halelly: Thank you for being generous with your insights and information Ian. We appreciate you.

Ian: Thanks so much for having me again.

Halelly: It’s my pleasure. TalentGrowers, I hope that you found that valuable. I’d love to hear what you thought, how you applied what Ian suggested, and what action you took and how it worked, because that’s going to be very rewarding for both Ian and myself. Of course, as always I’m open for your feedback, and I hope that you have already downloaded the free tool that I’ve created for you. It’s on the show notes page for this and every episode of the TalentGrow Show. It’s over on TalentGrow.com/podcast/episode145. That can help you avoid the 10 mistakes that leaders make, and make sure you’re not one of those people making those mistakes. That will also help you get my latest email every Tuesday morning that tells you what episode is up now and what episode is up next and always a learning opportunity or quick tip. I look forward to staying in touch with you and hear from you and I thank you for listening to the TalentGrow Show. I’m Halelly Azulay, your leadership development strategist. Everything on this podcast is sponsored by TalentGrow, which is the company that I started 13 years ago that helps develop leaders that people actually want to follow. Until the next time, thanks again for listening and make today great.

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