Leaders are constantly faced with the challenge of encouraging innovation and leveraging the highest potential of their team. However, it isn’t always easy to know when and where it is appropriate to call for change within an organization, nor how to cultivate intrapreneurship in your team. On this episode of The TalentGrow Show, I chat with author and Fortune 500 consultant Simone Ahuja to get her powerful perspective on leadership and intrapreneurship. Advocating enterprise-wide transformation through small steps and experiments, Simone shares actions that leaders can take at any level of an organization to encourage innovation. You’ll learn why intrapreneurship is so valuable yet such a challenge in large companies, which emerging trends are making an impact on innovation, and what structures you can put into place to leverage your team’s creativity and potential. Plus, learn the important distinction that Simone sums up as ‘being a navy seal or being a pirate!’ Listen and don’t forget to share with others in your network.
ABOUT SIMONE AHUJA:
Dr. Simone Ahuja is founder of Blood Orange, a global innovation strategy consultancy that advises large organizations and corporate intrapreneurs. Dr. Ahuja is a bestselling author and contributes regularly to the Harvard Business Review. She is an advisor to MIT’s Practical Impact Alliance and provides innovation and strategy keynotes, labs, and consulting services to organizations including Procter & Gamble, Target Corp, Stanley Black & Decker, 3M, and the World Economic Forum. Her latest book, Disrupt-It-Yourself, outlines how large, established organizations can stay relevant by harnessing the power of their intrapreneurs, and how corporate intrapreneurs can leverage their passion and purpose to be even more effective inside of established organizations.
WHAT YOU’LL LEARN:
How do people innovate when they are resource-constrained? Simone shares the story of how she discovered the answer and kick-started her career (4:24)
Grappling with the challenge of introducing innovation into large companies (6:25)
Simone summarizes what her second book, Disrupt It Yourself, is really about (7:30)
Simone talks about emerging trends in the workplace that connect to the ideas and principles in her book (8:00)
Enterprise-wide transformation through small steps and experiments (10:43)
Simone discusses the idea of purpose, which is at the heart of Disrupt It Yourself (12:00)
An example of a massive transformative purpose, and how it helps align employees around something bigger than themselves (13:52)
Being a navy seal vs being a pirate (15:23)
What are things that leaders can do at any level of an organization to encourage innovation? (16:10)
Simone discusses management of the future vs management of the past, and the idea of ‘air cover’ (18:16)
Simone weighs in on the topic of failure and learning from mistakes (19:25)
Building in structures that make it difficult for managers and leaders to say no (20:54)
What else can leaders do to encourage innovation? Simone talks about organizational agility, rethinking the role of managers, and the idea of ‘messiness’ (25:11)
What’s new and exciting on Simone’s horizon? (27:13)
One specific action you can take to upgrade your intrapreneurial skills (28:20)
Get Simone’s book, Disrupt-It-Yourself
Check out the website for Simone’s book
Email Simone at firstname.lastname@example.org if you have follow-up questions after listening to the podcast!
Check out Episode 92 of The TalentGrow Show with Ofir Paldi for more about learning from your mistakes
Episode 124 Simone Ahuja
TEASER CLIP: Simone: After three years of research with intrapreneurs and larger organizations, I will say that it really is about purpose. In fact, one of the principles is follow your passion and purpose. Intrapreneurs, they do lead with their hearts. They’re often very closely connected to their end users and that is a part of what drives them forward. This is something that really goes beyond a mission, something that’s bigger than all of us.
[MUSIC] Announcer: Welcome to the TalentGrow Show, where you can get actionable results-oriented insight and advice on how to take your leadership, communication and people skills to the next level and become the kind of leader people want to follow. And now, your host and leadership development strategist, Halelly Azulay.
Halelly: TalentGrowers, it seems like a lot of the shows that we are having at the beginning of this year are focused on trends and the future of work and this one is going to help you think about how you can be an intrapreneur and as a leader, how you can support more intrapreneurship in your organization. My guest is a friend, Dr. Simone Ahuja, and she is an expert on this topic. She has a book that’s coming out today as we release this episode that is all about this topic and we’re going to talk about how to become a disrupter, an innovator, an intrapreneur and as a leader how to create more of that in your organization. I hope that you find it valuable. I’d love to hear what you thought about it afterward. Let’s listen in.
All right TalentGrowers. This week we have Dr. Simone Ahuja. She is the founder of Blood Orange, a global innovation strategy consultancy that advises large organizations and corporate intrapreneurs. We’ll talk more about that word. Dr. Ahuja is a best-selling author and contributes regularly to the Harvard Business Review. She is an advisor to MIT’s Practical Impact Alliance and provides innovation and strategy, keynotes, labs and consulting services to organizations including Proctor and Gamble, Target Corporation, Stanley, Black and Decker, 3M and the World Economic Forum. Simone and I are on the same Mastermind group for female authors, so this is how I know Simone and I’m really glad to host her today because, if you’re listening today as we release this episode, her newest book, Disrupt it Yourself, is being released and in this book, she outlines how large, established organizations can stay relevant by harnessing the power of their intrapreneurs and how corporate intrapreneurs can leverage their passion and purpose to be even more effective inside of established organizations. Simone, welcome to the TalentGrow Show.
Simone: Thanks Halelly. Great to be here.
Halelly: I’m so glad that you’re here as well, and I look forward to talking to you about this really interesting topic. But before we do, we always ask our guests to introduce their professional journey very briefly. Where did you start and how did you get to where you are today?
Simone: My professional journey has been an interesting one. It’s something I hope will serve as perhaps as a bit of inspiration or maybe a guidepost for some. It started in healthcare. I was trained to be a dentist. And that was a very short-lived career for me, because it was sidetracked by a bout of typhoid where I got really sick and I had one of these epiphanies where I thought, “Okay, life is too short. Dentistry isn’t really the thing for me,” and I started shifting into other areas that I was interested in. One of them was visiting and studying emerging economies – this was 15 years ago – like India. I started doing that by making documentaries and series for PBS and it shifted from just looking at what trends are emerging, what are the cultural trends emerging in these markets, how are they changing, how are they unlike what we think they were especially back then when coverage was a little bit more stereotypical?
And then it started to change to innovation. So Best Buy was a company that was interested in looking at how do people innovate when they’re really resource constrained? It happens all over the world. People are solving big pressing problems even if they don’t have a lot of resources. They asked me if I would go back to India and film a series about innovation in resource-constrained environments. That’s what I did. I spent about seven or eight months on the ground doing a lot of field research, background research, a bit of academic research, and really unwrapped what that looks like. Whether it was a grassroots entrepreneur or someone who was a corporate leader who was leading a multinational. And what I discovered was this concept called jugaad which is not a new concept, but ultimately, I coined a phrase with my co-authors of my first book called Jugaad Innovation, which was exactly that. Jugaad innovation was what I learned in these markets are kind of these fast and frugal and flexible and inclusive approach to problem solving. It’s got its roots in emerging markets and other cash-strapped environments, but it’s got applications for corporations and organizations in developed economies as well.
That led to some work at the University of Cambridge and Judge Business School, where I met my co-authors, and ultimately we were blogging about this concept of jugaad and jugaad innovation on the Harvard Business Review. An agent said, “Hey, that’s a really interesting concept. Would you like to write a book about that?” And we said, “Absolutely,” and it just sort of evolved from there. The first book came out in 2012. I built a consulting and advisory practice on that, helping large organizations think about how do they innovate differently, not just for emerging markets, but for developed economies as well. How do we think really differently about the way we solve problems? And now, years later, as I go through these keynotes and workshops and consulting services, what I’ve seen is that a lot of organizations are changing their mindset and they are changing the way they think about ideas and how do we get to solve the problems? But it’s the execution piece that’s really a big issue in larger organizations, and I’m sure a lot of your listeners have experienced this firsthand. These large organizations can be very stayed, they can be very labyrinthian, they can be very hierarchical. Sometimes it feels like you’re trying to move a mountain when you’re trying to do something very simple. Having said that, there are lots of people – and these are people I would call intrapreneurs, kind of the entrepreneurs on the inside of these big organizations that are really closely connected to end users – and they really understand what their problems are, and they want to help solve them. And it may even be connected to, let’s say the strategic roadmap of the company, but there are so many barriers in the way that it starts to feel a little daunting. How do I actually help solve this problem because it’s not business as usual here?
That’s really what the second book is about, Disrupt it Yourself. Disrupt it Yourself is how do we actually start to take the ideas that we have and execute on them so that we can come up with solutions that reach the marketplace, that add value to our end users, that add value to the company? I would say especially help to nourish the people on the inside of these organizations, because if we go away from my background a little bit into what this book is really about, I think it’s about how to do large corporations sustain themselves? There’s a big risk with these companies today – only 14 percent of new grads want to work in large companies. Right Halelly? They want to work in a startup or they want to start their own entity. They’re not really moved by these organizations that often seem purposeless.
Halelly: And the statistics also say that larger organizations are really at risk because of the way in which the world of the future is going to be. It’s going to be hard for them to move fast enough and to stay competitive, right?
Simone: Exactly. They have these rigid systems, they have full-time employees, they have X kinds of benefits, but we know in just a few years, over 50 percent of our workers will be independents.
Halelly: The gig economy.
Simone: The gig economy is upon us and it’s only going to grow. How are these companies going to manage that, and in a way Disrupt it Yourself starts to answer that question. A, by retaining people who are the right fit for your organization, who can help you innovate and stay relevant, and B, by becoming a more flexible and agile organization so that the organization itself can stay connected, can stay relevant, can keep connected to the pool of people who might not work with you on a full-time basis but are still really valuable to your organization and you can add them in if you have the right structure.
Halelly: There are so many trends. We’ve been talking about that a lot on the podcast lately, and in fact some of the upcoming episodes as well, we’re focused on this future and trends. What other trends do you see?
Simone: I think this is such an important discussion and I have listened to some great podcasts by some of your other interviewees, and it has really helped me think too about what trends are emerging and how does it connect to this research that I’ve done? I agree with a lot of the folks you had on your show that yes, the gig economy is one and so that connects back to agility. We were talking about what does it mean for an organization to be agile? I have a principle in my book that I talk about which is called keep it fluid, and that really means a couple of things. It means being connected to agility, being open, it means having the right mindset to shift to market needs. It means having the humility to understand the way you’re doing things may not always be right and it certainly won’t work indefinitely. It helps us think about how can we get faster? Speed is about moving forward with data and tested hypothesis, but it’s also about not trying to be perfect. I think a lot of people are talking about perfection is the enemy of success because the truth is, we never known exactly what will work until we try it, so speed is also about how do we move forward, maybe smaller?
I think it’s funny, I was just talking with a client at a Fortune 10 company where they were talking about enterprise-wide transformation and something they’re really trying to tackle. The problem is, this is such a hard reach. Sometimes, if we want to go faster, we have to experiment and keep things small. Would you agree Halelly?
Halelly: Yeah. It’s almost like this designed thinking?
Simone: Yes, right. It’s small, iterative, experiments, you have a hypothesis, you test it out. Intuit, one of the companies I feature in Disrupt it Yourself, they have something called the unit of one. They literally take an end user who is a relevant end user and they test out a solution with that one end user and if they get a certain kind of response, something that starts to validate their hypothesis, they start to grow and grow the experiment. But you don’t have to start with a massive countrywide or nationwide or even regional rollout. That is, I think, some of the enemy of speed in large organizations, along with bureaucracy, business as usual processes, right?
Halelly: Bureaucracy is huge.
Simone: It’s huge. So how do Behemoths compete with this? Experimentation is certainly one way. The other thing I think is really critically important, and is at the heart of Disrupt it Yourself, is this idea of purpose. I think you’ve talked about that with others on your show too, Halelly.
Halelly: It’s a huge trend. It’s coming up so much.
Simone: It’s so funny, because in my first book – I’m so glad to hear it’s coming up a lot – and in my first book, Jugaad Innovation, we had these six principles of frugal innovation or jugaad innovation. The last one, there are things that are really highly relevant and connected to this new book. Things like keep it simple, stay focused, reframing adversity as opportunity, seeing the glass as half full kind of a thing. The last one was follow your heart, because we saw so many people who were operating in very, very challenging environments. Things we can’t even imagine, like I have no infrastructure, I don’t have access to affordable capital, I don’t have formal education. They were solving these problems and they were doing it in large part because they were so closely affected by it. They had experienced it themselves or someone in their family, for example. But I used to say this almost under my breath – I’d address a corporate group and think, “This sounds kind of soft, not really something you can sink your teeth into,” and I’d say, “And then follow your heart.” Now, after three years of research with intrapreneurs and large organizations, I will say that it really is about purpose. In fact, one of the principles is follow your passion and purpose. Intrapreneurs, they do lead with their hearts. They’re often very closely connected to their end users and that is a part of what drives them forward. This is something that really goes beyond a mission, something that’s bigger than all of us.
Do you know Salim Ismail? He used to be out of Singularity and now he’s at ExO Works, Halelly
Halelly: I know those two organizations, but that name doesn’t ring my bell.
Simone: Okay, so Salim Ismail out of ExO Works calls this the massive transformative purpose. An example of that would be something like Google’s “organizing the world’s information.” These are big, massive goals, something you can wrap your head around, something that will help people. It’s interesting because Jim Loree who is the CEO of my client Stanley Black and Decker, he wrote the forward for my book, and he shares something that really underlines this shift. He talks about how an MTP – or massive transformative purpose – this deep purpose, it really helps align employees around something bigger than themselves, and it kind of serves as this North Star when you’re veering from the company’s rules. One of my favorite quotes from the book is actually from him in the forward, where he says, “If we really want to disrupt from the inside, the company’s rules, frankly, have to be overruled.” I don’t think there’s anything that could be more true.
This is where I think some of the challenge may come in for some listeners, who say, “Well, that’s easy for a CEO today,” and I have to say, it does have to come from sort of bottom-up and top-down and from the sides. You’ve got to have leadership who supports this kind of, I would call it in my book, Navy Seals not pirates. These are not people who are just breaking the rules just to break the rules. They’re breaking the rules for the greater good.
Halelly: I get pitches for the podcast all the time and I had a pitch from someone who wrote a book how to be more like a pirate and I put that in the maybe later file. I’m sorry, but I’m not buying it!
Simone: I think I get the idea of it, but it’s the pirate for the greater good. It’s a little bit of the Robin Hood effect. We want to do things, we want to break the rules then they really are beneficial and I think what’s interesting is it can be a win-win. We have to acknowledge that publicly held companies, especially, they are responsible. They’re shareholders. They’re responsible to their employees and they’re certainly responsible to their end users. Satisfying all three of those at the same time is getting increasingly difficult. This idea of having purpose and more about passion and purpose is something that’s fundamental to innovation and the success of not only intrapreneurs, but also organizations. Organizations that don’t support these intrapreneurs, they’re going to lose them.
Halelly: That’s the challenge, right? When we think about the kinds of people that are passionate, that are go-getters, that don’t wait for permission or don’t wait for somebody to tell them to go do something, when they see a problem and they feel moved to solve it and they’re doing it on the inside, so you’ve got this rare combination of entrepreneurial thinking but willing to do it from within some kind of a large organization, just as you said, organizations want that and you want to support that rather than squash it so that you can keep those people. As leaders, as we think about the listeners, maybe you’re not necessarily on the very top of the origination to set the culture. What are some things that leaders can do from any level of leadership that can help build and sustain the kind of local environment, local culture, and incentivize these kinds of people to do that? Do it and stay?
Simone: That’s a great question. I also want to acknowledge something that you just said that’s really important, Halelly, and you mentioned about the people who are more entrepreneurial by nature, but yet they also understand how to navigate the complexity of the organization? It’s a pretty rare skill, so to your point, I think it’s really imperative that leaders attract and retain and support these people.
What are the ways they can do that? I would say one of the biggest things they can do is start to build a permission list organization. This is about supporting and not controlling. One of the phrases that I’ve heard many, many times, and I suspect you have too in your podcasts and your own work, Halelly, is this idea of providing air cover. So, it’s this idea of giving people space. I think one of the things I’m most fascinated with right now in the world of management is that management of the future doesn’t look like management of the past. If we think about management of the past, we think about having guardrails and keeping people on the rails. If we think about management of the future, in forward-looking organizations that will sustain and thrive, then we think about how do we create space? How do we give people opportunity? How do we give them certain freedoms? With some basic framework. It’s not that they’re going to go completely into some different realm, but rather, how do we give them space to create and innovate?
Halelly: And experiment and make mistakes, which is inherently part of that, right?
Simone: Exactly. That’s exactly right. They have to be able to make mistakes without being punished and in fact, that has to be flipped. Now, a lot of people – again, I know people have talked about this on your show – you talk about how do we fail forward and fail fast? Here’s something I’ve found that’s really interesting. For years I think many of us have been trying to convince people it’s okay to fail, and more recently I would say that on my team, we just don’t call it failure anymore. We call it ROI, which is return on intelligence, rather than return on investment. So what is it that we’re learning when things don’t go the way you anticipate? If things go as we planned, it’s a win. If they don’t go as planned, we have learnings that then get shared across the organization. That’s also a win.
Halelly: Oh yeah, and the perfect compliment is episode 92 with former Israeli fighter pilot Ofir Paldi who talked about a whole system of how to create a culture that supports learning from mistakes. I’ll link to it in the show notes.
Simone: Please do, and I think that’s fascinating, because people who work in that kind of environment which is so exacting and can be life and death, right? It’s not something that’s going to have a more nominal effect, can still talk about what does it mean to allow some room for failure? To allow more room for learning? I think that’s a great example that you bring up.
This idea of creating a permissionless idea, this idea of creating air cover, saying yes more often. Building in some structures that actually make it harder to say no, because that can be a default also. Everybody is so busy with their work, this is how we do things, we’ve got to hit our numbers for the P&L. Make it harder to say no for managers and for senior leaders, put some skin in the game. I think this is something that’s been the very hardest, greatest challenge of my work is even when there’s top-down, bottom-up, side support, even when we have new initiatives that are launched and some of them are quite successful, to sustain it you’ve got to really have some skin in the game from all sides.
Halelly: Let me stop you for a second – you said build in some structures that make it easier to say yes or harder to say no. Can you briefly expand on that or give an example?
Simone: It’s a great question because it’s such an important one. This is where you’ve got to have multiple players come into this. Simple structures could be things like if I’m doing a 360 of a senior manager who has several people under them and in some way they’re tasked with innovation –
Halelly: 360 degree feedback survey, you mean?
Simone: Exactly, like a feedback survey. And we’re thinking about their reviews – do we actually think about how they support their people in this process? Do we think about the number of new ideas that they helped support? Do we think about the way that they created space for others to experiment? The number of experiments that came out of their part of the organization. Those are some ways, when we start measuring people on these things, it makes it harder to say no. This is where everyone talks about innovation and creativity being completely organic – I’d say another trend, Halelly, and tell me what you think about this, is that innovation has to become a discipline, it has to become a function and it is, just like years ago when things like finance and marketing became functions, that wasn’t always the case. I think we forget about that in today’s day and age. Innovation is finding that time now where it, too, has to become more formalized, more structured, more of a function. We still have to have the space and sometimes we have to go under the radar and under cover, but this is a big trend that I’m seeing today.
Halelly: I like how you described that we know the cliché saying, “What gets measured gets done,” so it’s building in expectations around that that are really explicit, which say and communicate that that is of value, that it’s a priority?
Simone: Exactly. I think this is particularly important. I would say I wasn’t always convinced of that until I started the research for this book, but I think it’s particularly important for these older organizations that have very, very deeply embedded culture, that have very rigid hierarchies. Without it, it’s really hard to get off the ground running. There will always be a subset of people who are willing to break some glass, bend the rules and push things forward, regardless of what the measurements are. The truth is, most people are going to need that kind of reinforcing mechanism. I was just at a very large consultancy the other day and the senior leader was calling for change and calling for innovation, but really, the metrics were all around revenue generation. How do you know what to believe?
Halelly: That’s lip service.
Simone: They can say, “I’ve got your back,” but the truth is, you’ve got a couple of kids, you’ve got a job where you’re making a good living – do you really want to take that risk?
Halelly: Good, so setting up some structures that make it hard to say no, and actually promoting it. That’s one thing. What else can leaders do?
Simone: It’s that idea of creating space that we talked about. That’s incredibly important. The idea of organizational agility. How do we support teams? It’s about supporting, not controlling. Eliminating rigid bureaucracy. Giving teams the resources to achieve their goals and create a culture that accepts responsibility and expects some measure of failure, as we were just talking about.
We also talked about rethinking the role of managers. It’s not that managers aren’t important anymore, but rather that there should be fewer layers.
Finally, I think there’s this idea of messiness. This idea of ambiguity. Fluidity really drives intrapreneurship, but it’s not tidy. This is something that managers need to experiment with and that, in terms of structure, empowering people, we talked about experimentation, learning from what doesn’t work. You have to have a special kind of person who can help to navigate that, but if you make your experiment small enough, if you do these tests in a small enough way, typically you’ll find some things that work very quickly and you can blow those out further. You’ll also find that you engage your people much, much more readily. And finally, I think what is one of the most interesting things I’ve seen is when you’re kind of flying under the radar with these little experiments and we start to find some successes, people start to find out about it and, “Hey, what is it? How can we be a part of it?” That is one of the ways that people start to then scale their smaller experiments.
Halelly: Nice. Because you become a role model. You’re leading by example.
Simone: That’s exactly right.
Halelly: I could talk to you forever, but we’re bumping up against our upper limit of the podcast time limit that I’ve arbitrarily created for this show and always complain about, but maybe one day I’ll change it. This has been really cool and thank you for sharing all those ideas. Before you share one actionable, specific tip, what’s new and exciting on your horizon, Simone? You’re in book launch mode, so I’m sure that’s got your attention. Anything different?
Simone: Yes, we have many births this year. Birth of a new book. I’ll say that launching a new book is very much like having a child. All of the activity and intensity around it. And shortly thereafter we’re expecting our second child in February, so that’s going to be, hopefully the book launch won’t be disrupted by the birth of a new child. Either way, we’re excited.
Halelly: Congratulations. Very exciting, and indeed a lot of change on your horizon.
Simone: That’s where all of this training about agility and mental flexibility comes in handy, right? I’ve got to put that into practice now.
Halelly: That’s true. You know how to do a book launch without a baby. Now you’ve got to do one with a baby, it’s going to be different. The good thing is the world is changing and book launches are changing, so I know it’s going to be great. Congratulations and good luck with both. What’s one super specific action that you think our listeners can take today, this week, that can help them upgrade their own leadership skills or future readiness or whichever attack you want to take on it?
Simone: I think one of the most important things that leaders can do is think about this way to create space. I think the other thing they can do is enlist others. There are typically others in the organization who are intrapreneurs. You know who they are. You don’t really have to think about it too hard. Identify who they are and find a way to start working with them. And if you don’t work with them as a peer, find a way to support them. I would say start by identifying those intrapreneurs that you already know who they are, and make it a priority to start supporting them in different and I would say bolder ways than you do now. That’s a path for building intrapreneurship among those who you lead but also a path to intrapreneurship and innovation, potentially even disruptive innovation, for the company that you serve. It really is a win-win for everyone.
Halelly: I like that. I talk about networking a lot and this is also a way to help bring those types of people into your closer network, because they can become mentors to you. They can become door openers. They can become role models for you, for the people that are on your team, and of course they can come and do good work that involves your team in some way, as you mentioned. I think there’s just nothing but good that can come from connecting with people like that. That’s cool, I like that.
Halelly: Nice, thank you. Simone, time is up, and I know that the TalentGrowers listening are going to be interested in learning more from you and learning more about you. What are some of the best ways to do that?
Simone: One of the best ways to learn more about the new book, Disrupt it Yourself, is to go to DisruptitYourselfbook.com or look for Disrupt it Yourself and my name, Simone Ahuja, on Amazon.
Halelly: I’m going to link to that.
Simone: Excellent. Another way is to email me directly – email@example.com. Happy to answer any questions that any of your listeners have along the way. There will be a small break in February when baby arrives.
Halelly: Do you hang out on social media? Should they follow you anywhere?
Simone: They can certainly LinkedIn me or follow me on Twitter @SimoneAhuja.
Halelly: Good luck with the book and with the baby. I can’t wait to hear an update when the baby arrives. In general, we really appreciate you taking time from this very busy period in your life to come on the TalentGrow Show and share some of your insights with us. Thank you Simone!
Simone: Thanks Halelly. I always enjoy listening to your podcast. It’s really fun to be a part of it. Thank you.
Halelly: All right TalentGrowers. That is it for episode 124. I hope that you enjoyed it and I hope that you take action based on Dr. Ahuja’s suggestion, Simone’s suggestion, for connecting and linking up with those people that are already doing this so that you can learn from them, so you can bring some of that innovation goodness to your group, to your team and of course to your organization as a result. Let me know what you thought. Let me know what you did, what actions you took and how it worked out. I’d love to hear from you. You know that I am eager for your feedback and I’m always also interested in hearing from you about what else you want me to cover on future episodes of the TalentGrow Show. As always, if you enjoyed this episode, share it with others and consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts so that other people who are browsing around find this show and are influenced by your positive review to give it a try. Thanks so much for listening. I really appreciate you and the time that you spend with us here on the TalentGrow Show. I’m Halelly Azulay, your leadership development strategist here at TalentGrow. Until the next time, make today great.
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