106: Open to Think -- Transforming the Way You Think as a Leader with Dan Pontefract

Ep106 Open to Think Dan Pontefract TalentGrow Show with Halelly Azulay

Are you Open to Think? Author and speaker Dan Pontefract is joining me for the second time on The TalentGrow Show, to share key insights from his latest book: Open to Think: Slow Down, Think Creatively, and Make Better Decisions. Dan believes that we leaders can optimize the way we think to make us more effective and shares actionable ideas and advice to help us do it. Using creative (and fun!) metaphors and examples, Dan teaches us how to cultivate what he calls the four ‘executive functions,’ how to implement a technique called reverse-coaching, and what it really means to be an open thinker. You’ll also learn how to take control of your time, including how to avoid a big pitfall many of us fall into when using our mobile devices! Listen and be sure to share this episode with others in your network.


Dan is the author of three books: Open To Think, The Purpose Effect and Flat Army.  He is Chief Envisioner at TELUS where he assists organizations in their quest for an open and collaborative future-of-work culture. Previously as CLO at TELUS, he was responsible for the overarching leadership development, learning and collaboration strategy for the company. Employee engagement soared from 53% to 87% between 2008 and 2014. His writing can be found on Forbes, Harvard Business Review and The Huffington Post. He is an adjunct professor at the University of Victoria and has delivered four different TED Talks.


  • Dan talks about the value of organizations that are entrepreneurial and open to new, visionary ideas, and how to leverage that openness as an employee (5:03)

  • Why Dan emphasizes culture, purpose and openness (7:31)

  • What is “open thinking,” and why do we need it? (9:47)

  • Halelly brings up the four-box matrix idea that Dan talks about in his book, and Dan explains it with an interesting metaphor (11:25)

  • What can leaders do to embrace open-thinking in their workplace? (14:18)

  • “If you’re not in a deep marriage with time, you end up emotionally divorced.” (15:44)

  • How can you take control of your time when you’re working closely with others? Dan suggests something he calls “reverse-coaching” (15:51)

  • “We don’t always have to say yes” (18:25)

  • Dan explains the four “executive functions:” being mindful, being attentive, being ruthless, and being humane (20:06)

  • A practical example of how most of us are not being ruthless with our time, and what we should do instead (22:19)

  • An open-thinker will be able to balance creative thinking, critical thinking and applied thinking (24:31)

  • Why Dan thinks that technology today often makes us less efficient, not more (24:44)

  • An example from the 2016 Presidential Election on the lack of critical thinking that technology and social media promotes today (26:38)

  • What’s new and exciting on Dan’s horizon? (28:45)

  • One specific action you can take to upgrade your leadership effectiveness (29:46)



Episode 106 Dan Pontefract

TEASER CLIP: Dan: How often these days do you look at a bus stop or a metro stop or people in line somewhere? What’s happening these days is I find that there is just so much mindless scrolling that we are using the devices and that big computer that’s in our pocket and we are no longer kind of being ruthless or attentive or mindful. My example there is, why is it that whenever we seem to have a spare moment, we are defaulting to doing the things that are either unimportant or we are not necessarily being ruthless with how we might be using that advantageous time? That’s frightening.

Because time is the critical success factor, ultimately, to being an open thinker, when we are mindful and attentive and ruthless and humane to ourselves, we are then saying, “Well, how might I use my time more wisely?”

[MUSIC] Announcer: Welcome to the TalentGrow Show, where you can get actionable results-oriented insight and advice on how to take your leadership, communication and people skills to the next level and become the kind of leader people want to follow. And now, your host and leadership development strategist, Halelly Azulay.

Halelly: TalentGrowers, welcome back to another episode of the TalentGrow Show and I’m excited to be here with you. I’m Halelly Azulay, your leadership development strategist and in this episode we have a returning guest, Dan Pontefract. This time he’s going to talk to us about thinking, and the kind of thinking that we need to be doing more of, the kind of thinking that we should be doing less of or maybe not thinking is what we’re doing, and he breaks it down so that you get a really clear idea of what’s missing and how to put it in. He even gives you actionable insight and tips for how to advocate for your time back, how to use that time well. I hope that you’ll enjoy this episode. Can’t wait to hear what you thought about it after. Here we go.

Welcome back. It is another episode of the TalentGrow Show, and another boomeranger. I have a return guest. I haven’t had that many yet, but Dan Pontefract is back. If you might remember him from episode 49, and if you do or don’t, you can go check that out because it was such a great show. Today, Dan is back to talk to me about his newest book. Dan is the author of three books now, Open to Think, which just launched, The Purpose Effect and Flat Army. He is Chief Envisioner at TELUS, which is a Canadian telecom company, where he assists organizations in their quest for an open and collaborative future of work culture. Previously Chief Learning Officer at TELUS, he was responsible for the overarching leadership development, learning and collaboration strategy for the company. Employee engagement soared from 53 percent to 87 percent between 2008 and 2014. His writing can be found on Forbes, Harvard Business Review and the Huffington Post. He is an adjunct professor at the University of Victoria, and has delivered four different Ted talks. Dan, welcome back!

Dan: I am so delighted to be here, and also to have been coined a boomeranger, because I am although Canadian, a want to be Australian. That’s amazing. Love to be a boomeranger.

Halelly: Awesome, mate, I’m happy you are! That’s the extent of my Australian accent and/or bad jokes! I don’t want to assume that people listened to episode 49 before this one or that they remember the specifics, and we always start with our guests telling us about their professional journey very briefly. Let’s do that, just to make sure this is a whole stand-alone show.

Dan: Fantastic, so Dan from Canada, and I thought I wanted to be a doctor when I was a kid. Then I ran from the sight of blood during premed and got into teaching. Teaching led me into becoming a Chief Learning Officer, eventually, and that Chief Learning Officer taught me a lot about purpose and leadership and engagement, and for the better part of my career, since about 2002, being that Chief Learning Officer in three different orgs has been fantastic. To learn and to create, to design, to test, to fail and to ultimately change. For the last four years or so in the aforementioned role as Chief Envisioner at TELUS, I’ve been able to take all my learning and apply it to other organizations. I’ve kind of stepped outside of an internal role and I now help other organizations with culture change and leadership development and the quest for purpose. Now, kind of a bit of what we’re going to talk about today, what’s going wrong with our thinking and how can we perhaps get better at it?

Halelly: It’s so cool that you’ve been able to fashion this career. I’m often fascinated by people who create their own role and successfully lead two tracks at the same time, which you definitely have. We talked more about that in our last episode, which was mostly about how to lead successful culture change and engage employees. I’m pretty sure that TELUS was not advertising for Chief Envisioner when you got that job.

Dan: No, I mean, that’s one of the beauties of organizations that “get it.” When I say get it, I mean organizations that are both intreprenurial and entrepreneurial, that believe the sum is greater than the parts, ultimately, and I just pitched the idea. Again, I have wonderful leaders in our organization that have allowed me the chance to make a difference in the organization, and now they extended that olive branch to go and take that same type of DNA – if not disposition – and apply it elsewhere into other organizations. It’s a bit win-win. On my side, personally, I didn’t want to leave TELUS, but I knew I wanted to leave my role. I knew I was kind of graduating and needed to do something different. But I love the organization. I love what we’re about. I love our social purpose. I love what we do in the community. I love working for what I call the purple and green tattoo – which is our corporate colors. But I also wanted to extend myself, and for the TalentGrow community, don't ever be afraid to push for an idea or at least a position at first, if it benefits the organization. It may not be immediately. Maybe you need to plant a seed. For me, ostensively, it took about 18 months from the seed plant to actually becoming Chief Envisioner of this group we call TELUS Transformation Office. But don’t ever be afraid to sort of go after something you want. In my case, the win-win is TELUS wins. They get to keep me, if that’s even the win, but the bigger win for them is that we’re extending an olive branch out to our customers and creating value.

Halelly: Absolutely.

Dan: A little bit of a life lesson, don’t ever be afraid to ask for something that might not be right there in front of you. Cheekily, we made up a word. Envisioner is not even a word, so there’s some irony behind it as well.

Halelly: That’s really awesome. I love it, and I’m so glad you said that, because that’s exactly what I was going for. I think that’s an important lesson. Let’s talk about your newest book. It’s called Open to Think. In it you say that if culture and purpose are two legs of a stool, one that aims to recreate and sustain a healthier society, the third leg is dedicated to improving our thinking. This was a quote from you. Specifically the type of thinking you suggest we need more of is what you’re calling open thinking. So dish, what is it? Why do we need it? And what is it made of?

Dan: First of all, you’re very kind to have alluded to the other books, the first two books I wrote. The first book is that first leg, culture. That was where I learned a lot working at SAP, working at TELUS, as Chief Learning Officer, and helping the organization with culture change. All the facets that go around engagement. That might be leadership and recognition and collaboration and some tools and tech. That’s kind of leg one. Then, I recognize as what we were delving into at TELUS and what I saw some great organizations also course correct themselves to do which was purpose. So folks like Unilever, a CEO like Paul Polman came in January of 2009 and completely changed the way in which that organization was operating. No longer just for profit, but for community and for planet. And so I did a lot of research around what’s purpose, what’s the point, and it came down to those three types of purpose. Personal, organization and role.

Then, once that book sort of came out – but books take a while to write and usually they sit around for a year and then they publish – so I as kind of thinking about, “What else is going wrong? Why aren’t organizations engaged? What’s wrong with the culture?” Does purpose have a part to play and arguably it does, so that was the bit of the yin and yang. Then I said the stool still feels wobbly. What’s that third leg, and what’s happening with that third leg and why? I test cased a few things. My work is working with other organizations, so I have lots of opportunities to chat with leaders and employees everyday. I am in the best case study role I think that’s out there. I just love it.

What came of this was, I guess, simply closed thinking. Instead of being open thinkers, and open thinkers quite simply are the balance between reflection and action, such that we are combining creative, critical and applied thinking. That’s the Coles Note version as we say in Canada, the short form. But where the thinking came out of is this notion of closed thinking. It’s not as simple as client-closed thinking, but we’re either terribly indecisive, so we are sitting on ideas or we’re sitting on decisions and we’re not making them, so that’s I would say 20 percent of the time. But what’s occurring way more these days is we’re frenetic and overly busy and distracted, and we have become zombies in our organizations to meeting requests and the do more with less mantra and all of this nuttiness that goes around being constantly actioned. That has had a consequence to feeling purpose in role and purpose of self, and has a consequence in the engagement scores and the ways in which we are operating our culture.

It just said, to me, it screamed at me, huh. Maybe this combination of too much reflection – i.e. being indecisive – and of course way more doing more with less and the busyness and the distractedness and all the things going on these days, the freneticism as I call it. This in combination actually is causing the lack of engagement and sort of the lack of purpose. That’s the math equation between the three legs of the stool.

Halelly: With reflection and action in your book, you show a four-box matrix, which I think is also really helpful. It shows that too much reflection and too little action leads to indecisiveness, and too much action and too little reflection leads to being inflexible. And then of course too little of both is indifferent.

Dan: Yeah! Later on in the book, I bring up this metaphor to sort of solidify the four box that you’ve alluded to, and the metaphor is popcorn. It’s sort of cheekily why I’ve put a kernel and a popped piece of popcorn on the front cover. That’s as follows: my family, we have three goats. That’s what we call them – they’re children, but we call them goats – and when it’s movie night at our home, we make popcorn the old fashioned way. The old fashioned way to make popcorn is if you get the big pot, you put some oil in, you put the kernels in and then you pop your popcorn. But here’s where, metaphorically, you can see where the four box comes in. For those of you kind of listening in, think of an X/Y axis and on the top left is reflection and on the bottom right is action. If you want, on the metaphor of the popcorn, if you were to just put the oil on the stove and then walk away from it with the kernels in there, you’re going to get a fire. Because no one is tending to the popcorn anymore. You really don’t care. You’ve become indifferent, which is what I call it. This is the disenfranchised, the disengaged, the people who just don’t care about their thinking anymore. They’ve given up and it’s really, really sad. That’s the fire.

If you were to go up on the top left, being indecisive, that means that you’ve put the kernels in and you’ve turned the oil on, but you’re just not sure if you really should be taking it off the stove. Eventually you’re like, “I better make a decision,” but you haven’t gotten to the point of fire, but you couldn’t balance the action with the reflection. And the last one on the bottom right is where you’re inflexible. It’s where you have really low reflection and high action. Imagine this – you put the oil in the pot, you put the kernels on, but because you’re so stressed and so stressed and so hungry, you take the pot off after about a minute. Nothing is popped and you start eating hot oil with kernels. What we aim for is this fluffy, scrumptious, delectable popcorn. That’s the balance between action and reflection. Unfortunately, as I’ve said, many of us are way too inflexible. We’re just jumping to action, and then there’s a portion of us that are either indecisive or indifferent.

Halelly: For leaders, what’s an important lesson? What should leaders do to make sure that they’re not falling into this trap themselves, but also not causing their team to either become indecisive or frenetic or indifferent?

Dan: It’s a great question, and the easiest answer for an open thinker is to take control of your time. So for me, time is arguably the most precious commodity of an open thinker. And unfortunately, with time, we’re either spending too much time deliberating – not enough action – or what’s the case is we’re spending too much time doing and we don’t have the situational capacity to balance reflection with action. Can you outsource the minutia? Can you be realistic of what you’re taking on? Can you stop over-calendarizing everything, instead of having 60-minute meetings can they be 45? Instead of having weekly meetings, can those meetings be bi-weekly? What ways in which can you do in your own calendar to free up time? If you’re an 8-to-5 person, can you block off 8:00 to 8:30 everyday? Can you block off 4:00-5:00 everyday? Can you block off Friday afternoons? You don’t want anything on it and it’s your time to decompress, do some deep thinking, do some creative and critical judgment and thinking. To be an open thinker, if you are not in a deep marriage with time, you end up emotionally divorced.

Halelly: Definitely many of us are not completely in charge of our organization. I mean, I’ve chosen to be in charge – I went out on my own – but most people listening are kind of in the middle someplace. Often, we feel like, “I don’t have that control or people just keep scheduling meetings for me or I keep getting these directives from above that are sort of the go-go-go, do-do-do.” You talked about the kind of thinking you need to do, and you talked about blocking time. What are ways in which we can actually make that stick?

Dan: Part of it, for the TalentGrow crew, would be what I call reverse coaching. Often, we thinking of coaching as leader to team member or leader to employee. I look at it slightly differently. I’m one of those guys that when I go to IKEA, I go in the exit to check the “as is” bin first. That’s just the way I operate. The reverse coaching, a suggestion, is having those types of time conversations with your leader to say, “Look, I don’t want to be an under performing employee. I want to be an above performing employee. But there are pieces to my sanity, my mental well-being, that I need you to be aware of.” The reverse coaching piece is helping him or her see what it is that makes this – you, me – tick. And things like time cushioning, maybe that leader has never heard of it, where the suggestion of the 60-minute meeting to 45. That’s okay. Situational capacity. There are ways for you as an individual, instead of just reverse coaching and asking about time, etc. Could you set up what I call the four star system? We all have problems to solve, whether they are organizational problems, whether individual, whether a team, whether assigned projects. But maybe you can have a star system or a four star system that sort of puts the level of severity or kind of situational capacity for each of the problems. Four stars are better be dealing with this this week or today, and building in the time around that, versus thinking that every problem needs the same amount of time and effort.

Situational capacity, the kind of four-star system is one way in which to do that. The other thing that really resonates for, I believe, team members who are individual contributors, is realism. I found a lot of team members – and I get your point about projects come down and you’re told what to do. I get that. You have to deal with that. But the realism of us always saying yes, we don’t always have to say yes. We can do that reverse coaching piece again and say, “Kind sir or madam, this is my load right now. As much as I want to say yes, I can’t say yes right now. I actually have to say no or no, not yet, and that way I’m going to be a better employee for the things that are on my plate for you and thus my performance will not suffer. In fact it will go better than saying yes to everything that does come my way or is pushed down.”

Halelly: Totally. By the way, listeners, if you might remember, in episode 87, one of my solo episodes, I explain why and how to say no. I give you the 5A formula for saying no without seeming like an unhelpful jerk.

Dan: Fantastic. Love it!

Halelly: It’s such an important skill. Let’s just say we’ve said no, we’ve blocked off time, we’re ready to do open thinking. Okay, now what do we do?

Dan: It’s generally a philosophy, and some people are going to be good at components of it and some people are not going to be great at all components of it. I think it comes down, for me, to be these four key pieces that resonate within the dreaming part, which is sort of the reflection, and then the doing part, and the in between of course, are the decision making pieces. Part of me believes, in the work I’ve done with both individual, employees, leaders and then executives, it comes down to this – there are four kind of what I call execution functions. If you’re unfamiliar with executive functions, executive functions are what doctors and the medical practitioners basically labeled our ability to remember, to inhibit and to ultimately do. From line managers to employees to C Suite, etc., it comes down to these four things about how you’re executing and the way in which you’re thinking.

The first is, be mindful. The be mindful part is we always have to be constantly remembering what’s relevant and pivotal to completing what it is that we have taken on or been assigned. When we remember what’s relevant and we’re being mindful, the second is being attentive. Attentive is being flexible yet focused. Things change. Sometimes when we get so dogged, we stretch ourselves too thin because we need to complete it as it was, rather than being flexible with our thinking and saying, “You know what? It’s okay to deviate a little bit on this particular action because things have changed.” We can’t be rigid, is really my point.

The third one is be ruthless. When you’re being ruthless, you are ultimately blocking out anything that is going to upset your own thinking apple cart. What’s irrelevant? What’s destructive? What’s impulsive? Don’t take those on. You have to be ruthless. It’s part of the timepiece, but I’ll get to some other examples in a second. And then the other one is being humane. You’ve got to be able to empathize both with yourself and with your team members or with your colleagues or with your customers, whatever the case may be. We don’t empathize enough. When we’re not empathizing, we’re not taking into the mental health and wellness of each other, including ourselves. That can be detrimental. Again, we’re piling on and we get stuck and we kind of lose focus.

Let’s put this into some practical terms with being mindful, attentive, ruthless and humane. How often, these days do you look at a bus stop or a metro stop or people in line somewhere, wherever, groceries? What’s happening these days is I find that there is just so much mindless scrolling that we are using the devices and that big computer that’s in our pocket and we are no longer kind of being ruthless or attentive or mindful. My example there is, why is it that whenever we seem to have a spare moment, we are defaulting to doing the things that are either unimportant or we are not necessarily being ruthless with how we might be using that advantageous time? That’s frightening.

Because time is the critical success factor, ultimately, to being an open thinker, when we are mindful and attentive and ruthless and humane to ourselves, we are then saying, “Well, how might I use my time more wisely?” Do I need to be scrolling endlessly on my device? Do I need to be reading every piece of celebrity gossip? Are there ways in which for me to maybe earmark time in which to do that, whereas during the day when I’m working or maybe I have a meeting that got cancelled, instead of going to Instagram and Facebook, instead of reading TMZ or whatever it is that we do, maybe I need to remember that in order for me to be successful as an open thinker, I need to be in control of those nuggets of time that come into my life and also just be in charge of what I’m doing with my time on my own.

Those are really, really important pieces. The people I interviewed throughout this book, the one thing I can’t stress enough is every one of them is a master of their own domain insomuch as when they have time given to them, they are using effective and positive results with it.

Halelly: You mean the people you interviewed are examples of people who do not squander their found time or small amounts of time?

Dan: That’s a great word – they’re not squandering their time. Again, I can’t stress it enough, because ultimately an open thinker is going to be able to balance creative thinking, critical thinking and applied thinking. The creative thinking is the dreaming part, the critical thinking are the decisions and then the applied thinking is the doing. Here’s where the two problems pop up. If we’re only doing, we’re applying all the time, so we’re executing. Then we don’t have any time to dream or decide. But conversely, when time does pop up or we’re better in charge of it, how are you spending that time to be creative and then to make those decisions? That’s what’s waning. The irony of all of this is that over the last 10, 20 years, we’ve said constantly that technology is going to make us more efficient, and it’s my belief that unfortunately, there are far too many of us that are using technology not to be time efficient. Adding up the minutes of the day into things that don’t actually have impact into the way in which you think and/or have to get things done. That's the irony.

Halelly: Yeah. It’s true. It’s so alluring. I definitely am guilty as charged. I go to my device and do mindless things sometimes – too often – because it’s just the path of least resistance.

Dan: There’s another thing that I want to make sure I get out that does impact your thinking. That is when we jump to conclusions, without doing the due diligence of fact checking, etc. If we’re so busy and we’re so frenetic and we’re so stressed and we’re mired in some mental unhealthiness, when things come across our desk – whether it’s in an email, in a tweet or Instagram or whatever – if we subject ourselves to believing it’s true, without doing and having the time to ensure that it’s in fact true, then we run the risk of looking like an idiot in front of people because we’ve just taken it for granted. That’s not good either. That’s not great critical thinking. We don’t have the white space or the time in which to be judicious with said facts, or “facts.” And one of the examples – I’m not trying to get political here, but just giving an example – one of the examples came in the run up to the 2016 Presidential election. There was a website that was called WTOE5news. They posted a “news article” that said Donald Trump has been endorsed by Pope Francis. That was the headline and then there was this large press release that went with it. And the “article” was shared by hundreds of thousands of people through Facebook, through whatever. In fact, the Pope had to come out and issue his own press release that said the Pope never says a word about electoral campaigns. The people are sovereign. I only say study the proposals well, pray and choose in conscious.

Wherever your politics are – that’s not my point – the point being is that this website popped up that was allegedly correct. It wasn’t. But lots of people thought that the Pope endorsed Donald Trump. Whether it was Hilary Clinton, Donald Trump, it doesn’t matter to me. It’s that people jumped to the conclusion. That’s bad thinking, isn’t it? At the end of the day.

Halelly: Yeah. That’s how the whole fake news thing probably gets started. It’s a problem when so many of us are rushed to action, rushed to judgment and then share and propagate it. We see that all around. That really helps understand the critical thinking part of it, the creative thinking part of it, and the applied thinking part of it which is don’t just sit on wherever it is you sit and think, but also take some action. Dan, this has been really interesting and I wish we could talk so much longer, but we’re running out of time. I want to make sure we leave our listeners with a super specific, actionable tip. Before that, what’s new and exciting on your horizon?

Dan: Well, not only has this book released, which I’m so excited about and it’s been a fun journey. I think I’m a masochist and so I’ve begun the process of researching my fourth book that actually will come out in January of 2021 and the working title is Six Degrees of Leadership. The degrees of leadership there are effectively the pillars of, so if I take the stool metaphor that we had earlier – you’ve got culture, you’ve got purpose and you’ve got thinking – it’s the seat. So the six degrees of leadership are what you sit on and so I think that’ll be the last book I write, but that’s my metaphor.

Halelly: Wow. That’s amazing and you already have a publication date and everything. You are cranking. I love it! That gives us a reason to have you back on, yet again. I get to look forward to that. Excellent. So a specific action, a tip, that listeners can apply right away – today, tomorrow, this week – that can help them upgrade their own leadership skills or their career success in some general way?

Dan: I guess it’s a mantra that I want people to just think about as they are going about their everyday, whether it’s work, personal life, etc. It’s kind of like a subtitle or tagline to the book and it’s really as follows: dream, decide, do, repeat. The whole notion of that, dream, decide, do, repeat, is that thinking is not just about doing. Thinking is not just about reflecting. Thinking is not being about indecisive and thinking is certainly not about being indifferent. But thinking urges us everyday to spend time dreaming, to spend time making good decisions, to spend time doing and making sure we’re getting stuff done. But repeat, that is how everything ought to be occurring as we are going about our daily lives.

Halelly: That’s how we can add value, ultimately. When the robots come, I think these are the things that will distinguish us from them, right?

Dan: That’s so true, my friend. So true.

Halelly: Awesome. I know people are going to want to stay in touch with you, learn more about you and from you, so what’s the best way to do that?

Dan: We try to make it simple so that, tongue in cheek, you don’t have to think about this one. If you’re interested in the book just visit OpenToThink.com and you’ll get some more information there.

Halelly: Perfect, and we’ll link to that in the show notes. Dan, it’s been fun. I appreciate you coming on the TalentGrow Show today to share some of your thoughtful wisdom. Thank you.

Dan: You’re so cool. Thank you and I look forward to episode three in a couple of years!

Halelly: Yes! There you have it. Dream, decide, do, repeat. That’s it for another episode of the TalentGrow Show. I’m so glad that you’ve made it this far to the back of the podcast club, as David Burkus called it, and I hope that you will take action. Without action there really isn’t very much growth, and we want to grow our talent, right TalentGrowers? Go ahead and take those actions and let me know how they went. Give me your feedback and always, I’m really, really interested in hearing about what you want to hear about in the future. Plus, download my 10 Mistakes that Leaders Make guide, that helps you figure out what they are and how to avoid them, because we don’t want to be making mistakes, even when they’re unintentional. They’re still unhelpful. I hope that you’ll grab that from the show notes page over on TalentGrow.com. I’m Halelly Azulay, your leadership development strategist here at TalentGrow and this has been another episode of the TalentGrow Show. Thanks for listening. Until the next time, make today great.

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