77: How to cultivate 4 essential capabilities to catapult your leadership success with Ron Carucci on the TalentGrow Show podcast with Halelly Azulay

ep 77 FB How to cultivate 4 essential capabilities to catapult your leadership success with Ron Carucci on the TalentGrow Show with Halelly Azulay

Based on their ten-year longitudinal study on executive transition, Ron Carucci and his team discovered why more than 50% of leaders fail within their first 18 months of appointment. Ron shares the four differentiating capabilities that set successful leaders apart. On this information-packed episode of the TalentGrow Show, hear the theory and research behind the four capabilities along with actionable advice on how you can cultivate them to bolster your own leadership ability. Plus, learn the surprising truth about how most leaders react to newly-acquired power and why your humanity, your flaws, and your weaknesses are actually some of your greatest assets! Listen now and remember to share with others!


Ron Carucci is co-founder and managing partner at Navalent, working with CEOs and executives pursuing transformational change for their organizations, leaders, and industries.  He has a thirty year track record helping some of the world’s most influential executives tackle challenges of strategy, organization and leadership.  From start-ups to Fortune 10’s, turnarounds to new markets and strategies, overhauling leadership and culture to re-designing for growth, he has worked in more than 25 countries on 4 continents.  He is the best-selling author of 8 books, including the recent Amazon #1 Rising to Power.  He is a regular contributor to HBR and Forbes, and has been featured in Fortune, CEO Magazine, Business Insider, MSNBC, Business Week, Smart Business, and thought leaders. 


  • What are the differentiating capabilities that help successful leaders succeed in organizations? There are four, and anyone can learn them! (5:30)
  • The importance of curiosity and how it ties into the first capability: context (10:30)
  • Ron shares his number one suggestion for avoiding context-dropping (11:33)
  • Ron’s suggestions for leaders who want to practice the third capability, choice, but at the same time feel pressured to just say “yes” (13:18)
  • You’re doing a huge disservice to yourself and to your team when you act merely as a “yes-man!” (14:36)
  • What it looks like to cultivate the second capability: breadth (15:33)
  • How to cultivate the fourth capability: relationships (15:57)
  • Ron shares a story that highlights the importance of breadth (16:27)
  • Halelly briefly summarizes the meaning of true leadership (18:43)
  • Two common mistakes that leaders make (one of them is very surprising!) (19:00)
  • Two major realities that new executives should understand when they come into some power in their organization (20:34)
  • Why your humanity, your flaws, your weaknesses, are actually some of your greatest assets (21:29)
  • Leading with generosity rather than expectation (22:06)
  • What’s new and exciting on Ron’s horizon (22:40)
  • One specific, actionable item that you can take to increase your effectiveness as a leader (23:58) 



Episode 77 Ron Carucci

Announcer: Welcome to the TalentGrow Show, where you can get actionable results-oriented insight and advice on how to take your leadership, communication and people skills to the next level and become the kind of leader people want to follow. And now, your host and leadership development strategist, Halelly Azulay.

Halelly: Hey, hey, welcome back TalentGrowers. I’m happy to return with another episode of the TalentGrow Show. I am Halelly Azulay, your leadership development strategist here at TalentGrow and this week I have Ron Carucci on the show, who is going to share with you the four most important leadership capabilities that you need in order to succeed. This comes on the heels of a 10-year study that he and some of his colleagues did that helped them see what’s the difference between the leaders that make it and the leaders that fail? That terrible statistic about how many leaders don’t make it, within the first 18 months. And so it’s really interesting. I hope that you enjoy it. Here we go, Ron Carucci on the TalentGrow Show.

Welcome back. I am happy to be here with my guest, Ron Carucci. He is a best-selling author of eight books and popular contributor at Harvard Business Review and Forbes. He’s the co-founder and managing partner at Navalent, working with CEOs and executives pursuing transformational change for their organizations, leaders and industries. With a 30-year track record of helping a lot of leaders, executives and organizations tackle challenges of strategy organization and leadership, I am really looking forward to talking with Ron today about ways that you can ratchet up your own leadership. Ron, welcome to the TalentGrow Show.

Ron: Halelly, it’s so great to be with you. Thanks for having me.

Halelly: It’s my pleasure. Before we get started talking about the things that you know best, we always start with our guests describing their professional journey in a very brief way, just so we get a sense of where you started and how you got to where you are today.

Ron: I spent the last 30 years or so, which is remarkable since I’m only 27, working in a variety of assignments of internal and external change consulting. My background is in organizational behavior, and I began my career inside large companies. For some, that’s a great place to be influencing change and I feel for some, like me, it was not. I think I realized after sort of collecting things thing called severance packages – which my kids loved at the time – but I realized, “Gosh, I think in order for me to truly express my passion for organizations, it might have to be by not being part of one.” And so there are some types of influence best left to outsiders, and I think ancient wisdom says you can’t be a prophet in your own land and I think I discovered that to be true. So I began my career as an external consultant, 20 some years ago, and then 13 years ago we started Navalent, with some dear friends. We have a great love for each other and a great love for our work and a great love for the impact we want to have in the world. So it seemed best for us to go and be in our own place, by which to shape that work. Have been here ever since and probably this is where I’ll retire from.

Halelly: Sounds like you have the best of both worlds, in a sense, right? You’re not working in insolation. You are working from the outside, but with a group of people that you care for and respect. How many years now together?

Ron: 13.

Halelly: I mean, then it’s for real, right? I have to admit that sometimes I envy people who have partners. I work alone, and I collaborate with people, but I don’t have a partner and I have to say it’s mostly because I fear it, because there are so many horror stories. If you’ve been able to make it to 13, then you have a really good partnership with these people, so you really have it good!

Ron: It’s so true Halelly, and there isn’t a day that doesn’t go by that I’m not reminded about how grateful I am. I will tell you, over those 13 years, it has not always been a smooth ride. There have been definitely some bumps and some speed bumps and lots of good friction. It’s like a family and we’re a virtual firm, so we’re spread out all over the country. We have to be very intentional about how we come together. Some of us are in the common cities, but we have to work very hard when we come together. Next week we’re going to be together for three days for one of our, we do two or three times a year and come together for what we call labs, and we’ll be together in our lab for our own learning and development, our own dreaming of the future. But, it has not been without turbulence for sure.

Halelly: That is life, I’m sure. Nothing good and nothing worth having is going to come say, but it does sound like your hard work is paying off. Kudos to you. Let’s talk more about some of the work that you’ve done, because it’s impressive that you have completed a 10-year longitudinal study on executive transition. First of all, just to stick at anything for 10 years is already remarkable, and also a lot of times we don’t really … people throw around advice, but it’s not based on a study or any kind of data, so you’ve studied a lot of different organizations, a lot of different executives, because the statistics are pretty abysmal that only, or more than, 50 percent of leaders fail within their first 18 months and you tried to discover and uncover what actually differentiates the successful leaders, the ones that do make it, from the ones that don’t. And you described it in your book, your Amazon number one best-selling book, I should say. Rising to Power, that you co-authored with Eric Hansen, and also this was actually something that was flagged by Harvard Business Review as one of 2016’s ideas that mattered most, which is cool. I know that the listeners are probably dying to know, what are those differentiating capacities or abilities that you discovered helped the successful leaders stick to it, versus the ones that failed?

Ron: It was a very rewarding, but also painful, study. To find out some of the landmines that organizations put in the way of leaders. Our first shock was that any of them are succeeding, given how difficult and how perilous the journey on the way up can be. So for your listeners, especially many of whom reside in the middle of organizations, this is especially important. Those that distinguish themselves when they stuck a landing in higher jobs didn’t start there. They began their careers where your listeners are, and began working on these capabilities then. These are all learnable things.

Halelly: That’s a good reminder.

Ron: The hard part about the research was we had our research team do 99 different regression analyses on this data, because of all the different ways we cut the data up, these four patterns kept recurring, and distinguishing these folks that actually thrived at the top. But the issue for me was they were actually good at all four of them. Those that were good at three of the four of them, of the seven or eight different dimensions we’re studying, also were in the failure group. And I didn’t want to have to say, “You’ve got to nail all four of these,” because then it felt like, “Is Jesus available for the job?” Because who else could do this? But the great news was, first of all, my research team said, “Enough. It’s not going to change. This is what it is. This is what the data says. You can’t ignore it.” The good news was, these are learnable. These are not some mysterious genetic code that set these folks apart. These were four hard-won muscles that they had worked hard for, and here’s what they were:

The first one we called context. These are the leaders that could actually read the environment around them. They knew that they had as much to adapt in themselves as they had to change in the environment around them. They were curious, they read patterns in their cultures and their organizations. They spotted trends in their industry. They cultivated their own curiosity into wonder why is this the way it is? Rather than other leaders who assumed they had an answer, who assumed they had a solution that other people needed, and then just worked hard to slap that answer on other people. These leaders started with that posture of, “I don’t know,” versus, “I already know.”

The second one we called breadth. These are the leaders that understood that organizations are all parts of a whole, and especially when you’re in the middle it’s very easy to feel siloed and isolated in the one swim lane you’re in. But these understood that as you get higher in an organization, you have to stitch the seams. The challenge, I’m sure for your listeners, the challenges they have, it probably would point to some adjacent organization or some adjacent teammate or some other place, where they have to cross borders and coordinate where difficulties happen. Breadth means you can stitch the seams. You can go from playing first chair to conducting. You can coalesce an organization and bring places where people are being pulled apart, you can bring them together.

The third dimension was choice. These are the leaders that could make really hard choices. They were not afraid of saying no. They knew that part of their job was to disappoint people, so they didn’t dole out too many yeses. They participated in decisions with the right amount of data and intuition, and inclusion of others, and narrowed the focus of the organization on just a few things in order to be successful. I’m sure one of the greatest pains for your listeners is they often have to translate direction from the top to everyday working people at the bottom, and the amount of competing priorities, conflicting direction, way too many over-stacked resources, makes their job unusually painful. Those that succeed were able to, in fact, narrow the focus and say no. You weren’t so consumed with pleasing people or making them happy that they doled out way too many yeses.

The last dimension was not surprisingly what we call connection. These people had amazing relationships. Deep, trust-based relationships of credibility with their bosses, their peers and their direct reports, all around them. These are the people, and every organization has them, that everybody yearned to work for. One of the very particular distinguishing features of how they established relationships was that they prioritized as they called it not by those they needed something from but by those they could make successful. They went out of their way to find ways to help others succeed. To put others’ ambitions on their agenda. They asked, “What can I do to help? How can I advance your priorities?” Rather than only cherry picking what they needed from other people.

So as you can see, four very complex, robust dimensions. Any one of them, difficult to master. All four of them, certainly very master-able, but now is the time to start. You can start learning these things, you can start preparing yourself for these things so that when you get to your first seat as director or vice president goal, you’re ready for it.

Halelly: Very interesting. Wow, I want to ask you so many follow-up questions about all of them. I’m curious that you chose the word context as you were describing curiosity. How is it different? It sounds like they were curious about what else is going on outside, and took a posture of not knowing or assuming that they don’t know, and is it more that the curiosity drove them to get better context for their decisions or their relationships or the direction?

Ron: Well, so often, Halelly, leader’s decisions are devoid of context. This is especially true for outsiders, or people taking on new assignments. They come in and organizations set them up in the selection process to fail by saying things like, “Wow, look at this great team of salespeople you built. That’s what we need.” Or, “My gosh, you just coded all this amazing IT constructs for your data systems. We need that.” Or, “My gosh, look at this great brand you built. We need that.” And in that process of selection, we are sending a very dangerous message. We’re saying you have a formula. You have a recipe, and it’s one of success. We’d like you to bring that here. So what do you those leaders do? They show up as if they are all that and a bag of chips and they have the answer, and then they work hard to impose that answer on the organization, without realizing they have to adapt it. Without asking, “What do I need to change within me to build credibility here, not just change it in them?” And so they ignore context. Rather than asking, “What is it about my wisdom and my experience that I could apply here, and what it is I have to adapt in order to make it apply.”

Halelly: And so when you advise or coach leaders like this, how do you help them not fall into that trap? What is your number one suggestion for them?

Ron: Get data. Begin your journey in an organization. Don’t you hear it all the time, Halelly? I’m just going to spend my first 90 days listening and learning before I do anything. And then two weeks in someone says, “Where is your 90-day plan?” And then all curiosity goes to hell in a hand basket. Suddenly you’re whipping up task forces and got consultants in and I’m kicking up all the dust to make it look like I’m doing something. And all my learning goes out the window.

Halelly: And everybody around you resents you.

Ron: Because they think you’re stupid. And you look silly. So we call this when your diagnosis is an indictment. Now, I’m judging you. And then you hear the person goes into their boss’s office and says things like, “You didn’t tell me it was this bad,” or, “How have you people made any money or done any work here?” And so now you’re indicting the very people whose support you need. What are they going to do? They’re going to back away from the ledge.

Halelly: And become defensive, and that probably impacts your trusting relationships, which was your fourth dimension. So now I want to ask you a follow-up question about the choice one, I guess that was the third, where they say know more. I totally agree with you about how you noticed that the many people that are not at the helm – and even they are sometimes answering to a board of directors or to external stakeholders – but you rarely have the ability to completely say no to things that are coming down the pipe that you might disagree with or you know might burn out your resources or move you away from higher priorities. So, what is your suggestion for many leaders that might find themselves in the middle and want to practice this capacity to choose and to say no, and feel inclined to say yes or maybe pressured?

Ron: The worst thing I’ve seen middle managers do is become victims. And they turn around to their people and say, “Hey, it wasn’t my decision. I get it, it’s a pain. We shouldn’t, but we’ve got to do what we’ve got to do here.” Rather than learning to find the courage to push back up and say, “Okay, let’s talk about the implications of this choice. If you want me to do this, let me tell you about the three yeses you told me last week. Let’s talk about this. Do you understand that we’re diluting capacity? Do you understand that the execution is at risk here?” You’ve got to be comfortable and courageous about how you help leaders above you. Have their back by telling them do you understand, do you really understand, the implications of this decision? Changing this priority again. Of adding one more thing to the plate. Of asking more of the resources that are already stretched too thin. Do you truly understand the risk of failure here? We could all, all skin our knees here. My recommendation is the following, and offer them alternatives by delaying projects or sun setting projects or saying no or finding other ways to get things done besides just being a passer. If all you’re seen is as a passer and a conduit, first of all, you’re going to extinguish yourself later, and be seen as a true leader, you won’t be looked at that way. You’ll be looked at as a yes person. Secondly, you’re doing yourself and the people you lead a great disservice by just becoming a victim of your boss. And while you may sound like collusively empathic to those you lead, you’re not going to be respected.

Halelly: Right, because you’re a doormat.

Ron: Right. So sure, thanks, for caring that what you asked me to do sucks, but why didn’t you push back?

Halelly: Oh my gosh, and I hear stories about that so much. So, some listeners might be thinking, “Okay, so let’s say I want to move up into an executive leadership position,” and you’ve seen a lot of, and worked with a lot of executives that are successful and also ones that are climbing their way up. What advice do you give middle managers to climb up and rise through the organization? Give us one or two nuggets.

Ron: I would say of course start cultivating breadth, context, choice and connection now. So for example, cultivate breadth. Go find out who depends on your work. Go find ways to cross borders and stitch seams. If you work in supply chain, go learn about marketing. If you work on logistics, go work with sales. If you’re working finance, go work with people who run P&Ls. Go find people who depend on your work or whose work you depend on and learn about your world. And then ask yourself, “How can I change what I do based on what I’ve just learned?” Cultivate your stakeholder relationships. Find ways to actively put the success of others on your agenda, whether they’re peers or direct reports. Learn to make hard choices. And be curious. Ask yourself, “Why are things this way? What disruptions are coming down the pipe that you should be prepared for?” What things are you curious about in your organization, rather than dismiss them or judge them or assume that your voice doesn’t matter. Embrace the power, even in a middle management role, that you can use to do good with.

Halelly: So let’s concretize this for listeners. I would love to hear if you have a story of even just one aspect of this where you've seen it in action, sometimes it helps people really get it when they hear about someone applying this advice and how it works. Can you give us a story?

Ron: Sure. So let’s take breadth. We were in an organization working with the innovation, marketing, R&D and this, and they had set some very ambitious goals for how much new revenue was going to come from new product launches. Which of course, everybody in the organization believed was silly because their new product performance had been abysmal for years. And the reality was you had R&D blaming the consumer insights for why the products didn’t work. You had the marketing folks blaming the R&D folks for not being able to look at products that consumers wanted. You had everybody blaming marketing because they had nobody to commercialize anything that was made. And the head of innovation decided, this is silly that I’m playing referee here. He brought R&D, marketing, commercialization and sales in a room for three days, and they had really, really, really hard conversations about what it was that prevented them from being able to integrate their capabilities. Truly blend and harmonize their perspectives, their insights, their talents, to bring products to market that consumers actually wanted and would pay for. And of course, in that three days, it got very heated and very intense, but what they learned about what it was is the processes that crossed all these organizations, roles that weren’t defined, metrics that were competing, a host of systemic issues that no one of them could have ever resolved. But rather than him running around, being referee or trying to sort of negotiate, he forced the seams together. He brought them together to truly make some plans on how they were going to change, how they conceived, prioritized and commercialized new products. And of course, the impact was profound on the organization, and that year set the stage for them to launch several very successful products. It took him having the courage to do it, to bring people together in a conversation, and he was in the middle. He wasn’t a C Suite executive. But it took courage and it took all four dimensions to understand how to stitch those seams and force conversations that otherwise would never have happened.

Halelly: That’s true leadership, right? Having the curiosity to see what’s not working and the vision for what’s possible, and then taking proactive initiative to make it happen rather than waiting for somebody else to fix it. Is there a common mistake you see a lot of leaders making that maybe our listeners can avoid altogether?

Ron: The one I already mentioned, was context. Assuming you’re starting an assignment with an answer rather than a question. It’s certainly a big one. The other one I think is people, as they rise up in organizations, they suddenly choke on the power that comes with the role. One of the biggest surprises in our study, we isolated power as a dimension of our work. Of course we assumed, and of course the headlines these days seem to bear it out, that there are plenty of people who want to indulge their power for self interest or immoral gain. So we assumed we would find some of that, but that was not nearly the greatest finding. The greatest abuse of power we found was abandonment. People were too afraid to use the power that comes with their roles. And so they froze. If you’re somebody who is uncomfortable exerting your will on others, learn to be comfortable with that now. As you rise up, your reach extends. And you have a chance to do amazing things. You have the chance to right wrongs, to bring justice to your organization where injustice has prevailed. But get comfortable with the idea of exerting that kind of influence now because otherwise you’ll choke when you get there.

Halelly: That’s interesting. I am surprised as well. I think that many people who strive for executive positions are interested in being more influential and more powerful, so you would think that the minute they get their hands on more power, that they would exert it. That’s curious.

Ron: They change, Halelly, the minute they get their hands in it. They also have all those eyes on them. And I tell executives, you have to understand two major realities that were less of a reality in your previous job. One of which is your life now plays out on the jumbo tron. And you should assume that you have 24/7 a megaphone strapped to your mouth. Everything you say and do is now amplified and people will distort you. They will concoct you, and have versions of you in their head, especially if you lead people in remote locations or in other parts of the world where you’re not immediately accessible. Now there are versions of you that you have to figure out which you can control and which you will never control. Many leaders, that is so disorienting, and so off-balancing, that they free.

Halelly: Interesting. Sounds like courage is in short supply, huh?

Ron: Courage and certainly knowing who you are. Knowing, having your feet underneath you in a way that says, “I know who I am. I know what I’m about. I convey who I am. I’m not going to hide who I am. I’m going to be as transparent as I can.” So many leaders feel like vulnerability is a danger up there, and actually vulnerability is your most safest place.

Halelly: And couple that with confidence. You have to be confident and vulnerable at the same time?

Ron: And sometimes you cover up vulnerability with fake confidence, right? And people see right through that. But yes, your humanity, your flaws, your weaknesses, are some of your greatest assets. Because once people know that you know you’re human, they trust you more. And in these days and age, leaders start distrusted. Because you’re a leader, because you have power, people assume distrust before they assume trust.

Halelly: This is where your relationship as a giver, I see it totally plays in, right? If you lead by creating more relationships and leading with giving rather than expecting or taking, you can then start to build the trust that others can rely on you or not worry about an ulterior motive, because you’ve already shown a track record of being someone who is generous.

Ron: And the best time to start that – well said, Halelly – is now. In the middle, before you’re at the top.

Halelly: Absolutely. You cannot start building relationships only when you get to that position. So, before you share a very actionable last tip, what’s new and exciting on your horizon Ron?

Ron: Gosh, a bunch of things. Great new clients and some new projects. But, the 10-year study you referenced is now 15 years of age, and we have now 3,400 folks in the database, the interviews. And, we’re going to go back and look and see what’s in that basket this year. In the last batch of analysis of that data, we isolated individual leadership behavior. But we didn’t isolate any of the systematic factors. Implications of strategy and culture, implications of governance on work, implications of collaboration on prioritization. So now we’re going to go back and look at that 15 years of data analysis and see if we can isolate non-individual dimensions to see what that might tell us.

Halelly: Interesting. Cool. So when do you think you might have something to share with us with that?

Ron: Hopefully by the end of the year. We’re just beginning the journey now, just beginning to package up the data and get it off to our, we use IBM Watson and some great artificial intelligence as part of how they weed the data out. Just getting the study defined now and the parameters defined now. So it’s early. But we’re excited. I’m very curious to see what we’ll find.

Halelly: Me too. I can’t wait. I look forward to hearing more from you. So what’s one specific action that listeners can take today, this week, to ratchet up their own leadership effectiveness?

Ron: Go ask for other stories. Go ask people. I have a couple of Harvard Business Review articles on how to ask, how to know your impact on others. If you’re not clear, and just because you’ve had a 360-degree view doesn’t mean you’re clear, but go ask people how you can do a better job leading them. Ask for feedback. Ask for people to tell you where are you being helpful and where are you not? But step out and find ways to actively pursue how it is you influence other people, and let them see you working on it. Because you get such multiplicative impact there. Not only can you become better as a leader, but other people see you working actively on your own formation. And it makes them want to work on their own formation as well. So when you have to ask more of them, they’re more willing. Go sit down and ask a few people in your kitchen cabinet, “Tell me how you experience my leadership and tell me how I can do better.”

Halelly: Cool. And totally, you lead by example, right? They learn leadership from you, because they will do what you do, not do what you say. Love it. Great. I know people are going to want to hear more from you and learn more from you, and you are a very prolific publisher of content. You are all over the place with really great articles. I mean, just today as we were recording this, I saw that you just this week, I think, wrote an article about how to deal with a boss who is passive aggressive, which I know that some people deal with, over on Harvard Business Review site, so lots of great information. What’s the best way for people to stay in touch?

Ron: A couple of ways. One, come to our website, Navalent.com. We’ve got a quarterly magazine that we publish we’d love to have you get, on all kinds of topics of leadership and organizational change. We have a great virtual summit coming up, called Leading Through Turbulence, which you can sign up for complimentary. We’ve got amazing guests joining us. We have Dan Pink, we have John Haidt, we have Dorie Clark, we have Whitney Johnston, we have Nilofer Merchant, we have CEOs from major companies, we have entrepreneurs from startups. The 25 phenomenal speakers joining us in early March, so a great way to continue to build your own capability to lead through turbulent times. You can sign up on our website for that as well. We’ve got a free e-book for you called Leading Through Transformation, so if you want to learn our secret sauce for how it is we create transformational change, go to Navalent.com/transformation and download our free e-book there. I’m on Twitter @RonCarucci and I’m on LinkedIn, so please stay in touch and let’s keep the conversation going.

Halelly: I really appreciate your time today, and sharing your wisdom with the TalentGrowers community. And I hope that everyone listening will stay in touch with you and take action.

Ron: Halelly, it was my pleasure for being with you. Thanks for having me.

Halelly: There you have it, TalentGrowers, another episode is wrapped up. I’m actually amazed by how many of my guests give that very same actionable tip. It is such an important thing that most people just aren’t doing enough. Ask others how you’re doing. Engage them in a conversation that welcomes and invites their feedback to you. One of the best ways for us to learn is by getting feedback and implementing it, and one of the biggest challenges for all of us is that we don’t get enough of it. Sometimes that’s because we don’t ask, and sometimes it’s because we don’t listen. So I hope that you will break both of those patterns by asking more, and listening more, and by the way, sometimes people give you feedback when you don’t ask and it doesn’t even look like feedback, but they are giving you feedback. If you’re paying attention, observing, listening, and are open, you actually will catch their feedback that is usually embedded in an undertone or in between the liens or in their facial expressions and you can then follow up and be more curious to learn more.

Well, I hope that you’ve enjoyed this episode of the TalentGrow Show. I hope that you will give us a review on iTunes and a rating. That is something that will help us be discovered by even more people that are looking to be the kind of leader people actually want to follow, and that will get the work that I’m doing and all of my guests that are on the show to more people, so that more people can become good leaders. That is something that you can do by leaving a review on iTunes. How easy is that? It takes like four minutes, one sentence, two sentences, three sentences at most, and if you do leave me a review I’d love to feature you on one of the next shows, I’ll read your review. Wouldn’t that be cool? You do it, okay. Go do it now, or when you’re done driving or whatever it is that you’re doing.

That’s it for this show. I’m Halelly Azulay, your leadership development strategist here at TalentGrow, and the show notes are where all the links and things we mentioned are going to be found. That is at TalentGrow.com/podcast/episode77. Thank you to you for listening. I really appreciate you, and until the next time, make today great.

Announcer: Thanks for listening to the TalentGrow Show, where we help you develop your talent to become the kind of leader that people want to follow. For more information, visit TalentGrow.com.

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