138: Sense and Respond – Transform Your Leadership Through a Powerful Mindset Shift with Jeff Gothelf

Ep138 Sense and Respond Transform Your Leadership Mindset Jeff Gothelf TalentGrow Show with Halelly Azulay

Software has consumed the world, according to author, speaker and organizational designer Jeff Gothelf. What does this mean? To start with, there is a lot to be gained as leaders by thinking of our organizations as software-driven. In this episode of The TalentGrow Show, Jeff joins me to discuss a powerful model and mindset shift which he calls sense and respond. Breaking it down into three steps, Jeff explains how making this shift allows us to successfully leverage the value that new technologies bring to our workplaces and to transform our leadership and teams accordingly. Plus, get actionable tactics and techniques for increasing transparency, encouraging productive experimentation, and upgrading your leadership effectiveness. Listen and be sure to share with others!


Jeff helps organizations build better products and executives build the cultures that build better products. He is the co-author of the award-winning book Lean UX and the Harvard Business Review Press book Sense & Respond. Jeff works as a coach, consultant and keynote speaker helping companies bridge the gaps between business agility, digital transformation, product management and human-centered design. Most recently Jeff co-founded Sense & Respond Press, a publishing house for practical business books for busy executives.


  •  “Software has consumed the world.” What does this mean and how should we shift our mindset accordingly? (5:56)

  • Jeff explains what he calls ‘systems thinking,’ and shares an example of how it positively changes our thinking (8:03)

  • What should your measure of success be? (8:50)

  • Halelly and Jeff clarify the leadership style that Jeff recommends and what it would look like day-to-day (10:46)

  • Jeff shares tactics and techniques for increasing transparency and upgrading leadership effectiveness (12:33)

  • What is humility and why is it something that more leaders and organizations should cultivate? (15:50)

  • Jeff shares the story of how one organization successfully transformed their mindset, focus and systems (17:24)

  • Driving up the velocity of learning (19:38)

  • Why introducing new systems and software in your organization can be both empowering and terrifying (20:33)

  • Jeff describes his ‘sense and respond’ model in three steps (22:52)

  • Questions to ask yourself when you run experiments with the sense and respond model (24:08)

  • As a middle manager, what is one thing you can do to encourage your team to experiment and learn with the sense and respond model? (26:18)

  • What’s new and exciting on Jeff’s horizon? (28:10)

  • One specific action you can take to upgrade your leadership skills (29:28)



Episode 138 Jeff Gothelf

TEASER CLIP: Jeff: If you listen to those metrics that I’m listing there, they are all measures of customer behavior. They are outcomes. And when we give those metrics, those measures, to our teams to execute, we stop telling them what to do. Which again is a fundamental shift for leaders. It’s a mindset shift that really flies in the face of what it has traditionally meant to be the boss. I’m the boss, I tell people what to do and they do it. We’re changing that mindset and we’re saying, “Your job is to drive strategic direction, to tell your teams what it is that you’d like to see change in the way that our customers or our users or our employees do within these systems,” and then you’re letting your teams work quickly to experiment, learn and discover the best combination of value, channel, delivery method, product, feature, solution, initiative that gets those behaviors, those outcomes to happen.

[MUSIC] Announcer: Welcome to the TalentGrow Show, where you can get actionable results-oriented insight and advice on how to take your leadership, communication and people skills to the next level and become the kind of leader people want to follow. And now, your host and leadership development strategist, Halelly Azulay.

Halelly: Welcome back TalentGrowers to another episode of the TalentGrow Show. I’m Halelly Azulay, your leadership development strategist here at TalentGrow and I release this podcast every week to help develop you as a leader and make you the kind of leader people actually want to follow, so thanks for tuning in. I really appreciate that you’re giving your time and energy and attention to this show. As you know, I always welcome your feedback so I can continue to make it even better. This week we have an interesting – well, we have an interesting guest every week, let’s be real! – but we have an interesting different kind of perspective this week with my guest Jeff Gothelf. He talks about design thinking and kind of how to create rapid opportunities to experiment, get feedback and improve in your leadership and with your team. So, he comes at this from the world of product development, and I think you’ll see how many ways this can link to your own work as a people leader and I hope that you will find it valuable. Let’s listen in.

TalentGrowers, this week Jeff Gothelf is with me. Jeff helps organizations build better product and executives build the cultures that build better products. He’s the co-author of the award-winning book Lean UX and the Harvard Business Review press Sense and Respond. Jeff works as a coach, consultant and keynote speaker, helping companies bridge the gap between business agility, digital transformation, product management and human-centered design. Most recently, Jeff co-founded Sense and Respond Press, a publishing house for practical business books for busy executives. Jeff, welcome to the TalentGrow Show.

Jeff: Thanks so much Halelly. It’s great to be here.

Halelly: I’m glad that you’re here and I look forward to speaking with you today about this topic, which is a little bit on the fringe of the things that we usually talk about on the TalentGrow Show. That’s cool, because we want to expand our horizons. But before we go there, I always ask my guests to describe their professional journey very briefly. Where did you start and how did you get to where you are today?

Jeff: I started out as a broke musician who then transitioned into working in the circus. I did a little bit of circus work back in the early 90s, and then coming out of that experience – which taught me a lot and to not be afraid of anything, as far as career choices go – I began working on the web, web 1.0, designing websites. Over the course of a 20-year career, starting with website design, I moved into product management and design leadership, and over the last 10 years or so, I have done work as a consultant both in-house in consulting companies as well as co-founding my own consulting company, and then ultimately setting out to write a book which was a pleasant surprise in my career, the book you descried, Lean UX. That led to another book, Sense and Respond, and these days I work with large and medium-sized companies, coaching them on how to build great products. How to really pay attention to their customers and redefine the way that they’re working in the face of software eating the world. How do you manage and lead digital-based businesses in a world that won’t wait for you to get around to doing the things that you need to do? They’ll just move onto the next provider.

Halelly: It’s true. It’s fast-paced and the time to respond to things is shrinking if not disappearing. That’s very interesting and I have to say that my curiosity is getting the best of me. What did you do in the circus?

Jeff: My long running joke over the last, I guess it’s been over 20 years at this point, is that I was the bearded lady. Not only did I have hair back then – which I don’t have today – but I had very long hair back then. But I was not the bearded lady. I graduated from undergrad with a degree in media production. So audio production, video production, that type of thing. The circus was coming through town and they needed an audio engineer, so I’m going to run sound and lights. I spent six months on the road, on the East Cost of the United States, kind of an I-95 type of path, being the sound and lighting guy for the Clyde Beatty Cole Brothers Circus.

Halelly: Gotcha. My husband’s degree is in that, and he had a sound company a long time ago. He does production, so I know that world very well, although thankfully he never joined the circus! I think that would be just too much. You know, your book and your focus and your career is very much about products and sort of the customer-facing side of business, which of course is very important. As you know, our show is very much about the people-focused side of leadership. Inside of an organization, in order to get customer satisfaction, in order to get work out, in order to get the products in the hands of customers and the customers to love them, we need to lead teams and leaders everyday. They’re working very hard to figure out this people side of the business. You say that leaders need to shift their mindset and there’s a lot that they can learn from this product-focused mindset on the inside, and to move from thinking about output and making stuff to outcomes and changing behaviors. I would love for us to talk more about that. What do you mean by it? Give us a couple of suggestions for how leaders can achieve this kind of a shift and mindset?

Jeff: The thesis that I work with is that software has eaten the world. In 2011, Marc Andreessen, the inventor of Netscape and sort of the oracle of Silicon Valley these days, said software is eating the world. In other words, every business is becoming a software business. Eight or nine years later, I believe that software has consumed the world. The only way that we build successful businesses and we scale them in the 21st century is to understand that first and foremost we are in the software business – that technology is the way that we drive growth, we drive access to customers, and we compete in a meaningful way. What’s amazing about that, and there’s an amazing power to thinking of your business as a software-driven business. It fundamentally changes the nature of how we think about the product, the service or the value that we deliver. Traditionally, for the last 100 years, we’ve had this manufacturing mindset, and the manufacturing mindset is one that’s focused on production. How fast can we make something? How fast can we make 1,000 of those things? Or a million of those things? And how can we reduce the cost of that and maximize the profit margin?

Software, or software-based thinking, the mindset that I’m asking you to think about, is systems thinking. Systems thinking means the quantity of stuff that we are producing, the output, is irrelevant. The goal that we’re trying to create is a change in customer behavior, or user behavior or employee behavior, but a change in human behavior. Systems are continuous. They never end. So we have a real opportunity to optimize them in an ongoing basis. At the same time, since our users, customers, employees are participating in these systems, we can learn very quickly what it is that’s actually delivering value to them, based on how they’re behaving in the system, and what isn’t delivering value. And so the measure of success, if you think of yourself as being in the software business, as driving a company that’s ultimately driven by technology, the measure of success is not how much stuff you’ve produced. It’s how have you positively impacted the behavior of your customers?

And so what that means is, it fundamentally changes really how we think about everything. For example, from budgeting and planning and finance, usually the annual budgeting season, for example it’s a season in every organization these days, is an attempt to predict the future. How much money will I need in 2020 and what is the return on investment that I hope to see with that? We attempt to predict the future, and then we have to spend that budget and hopefully return that amount of money. Instead, we want to look at those planning and budgeting conversations as what are our outcome goals for 2020? Do we need to increase retention? Do we need to reduce customer acquisition costs? Do we need to drive same-store sales? If you listen to those metrics that I’m listing there, they are all measures of customer behavior. They are outcomes.

And when we give those metrics, those measures, to our teams to execute, we stop telling them what to do. Which again is a fundamental shift for leaders. It’s a mindset shift that really flies in the face of what it has traditionally meant to be the boss. I’m the boss, I tell people what to do and they do it. We’re changing that mindset and we’re saying, “Your job is to drive strategic direction, to tell your teams what it is that you’d like to see change in the way that our customers or our users or our employees do within these systems,” and then you’re letting your teams work quickly to experiment, learn and discover the best combination of value, channel, delivery method, product, feature, solution, initiative that gets those behaviors, those outcomes to happen.

Halelly: It sounds like, when you’re describing that, it sounds to me like in a sense, you set the outcome, you set the goal, and then you tell them, “Any road that takes you there, except you have to do it really fast, but figure it out.” Is that the mentality that you’re suggesting or is there something that leaders need to do on a daily basis in order to guide people to achieve those outcomes if they’re not sure how to do it?

Jeff: Yes, so it’s absolutely not set it and forget it. “Teams, increase retention by 50 percent. See you in 2020.” That’s not what we’re saying. It’s absolutely critical that the teams understand the strategic reason for this, they understand the constraints and the guidelines that you as a leader put in place, so it’s critical that you say, “I’m asking you to increase retention, but here’s what’s in scope for 2020 and here’s what’s out of scope. I need you to stay within the things that are particularly in scope.” Now, because this is a new way of working and a new way of thinking, there’s a tremendous amount of responsibility on the teams to radically increase their transparency. So as a leader, what you’re doing in this case is you are being more transparent. You’re saying, “As an organization, one of the things that’s critical to us in 2020 is to increase retention because of all of these reasons.” And the teams are saying, “We’ll go figure out how to do that and we will regularly report back to you to make sure that you understand what we’re doing, what we’re learning, how we’re progressing toward our outcome goal and then you can tell us whether or not it makes sense for us to continue down this particular path.” And so the timing has changed too. Instead of having an annual planning season, we have these check-ins much more frequently, we have course corrections much more frequently, and the agility of the organization increases.

Halelly: So I saw in your book that you describe how a lot of our mindset around how we work in general in business is still kind of stuck in the Industrial Age, where it took a long time to get feedback on anything, so you could just sort of put something out and wait the course and hopefully, eventually, find out things you can change. Now it’s instant. Customers can give you instant feedback and so can employees. So this continuous learning loop that you suggest in organizations, even on the inside of teams, it sounds like it’s critical where you’re constantly checking in or that they’re checking in, and there’s this increased transparency and communication about what’s working. Do you have any concrete examples of what should that look like or what’s the best practice and how to do that so that talking about it doesn’t end up taking too much time, but that it’s done in an efficient and productive way?

Jeff: It depends on the size of your organization or the business unit that you work in. I’ve seen a few great tactics for increasing that transparency. There are multiple benefits to doing these activities. For example, I used to work at a company that was about 400 or 500 people, and that size of an organization, we did an essentially all-company stand up every Monday morning for 15 minutes.

Halelly: Like all 400 people?

Jeff: All 400 people. Again, with that size company it was still feasible. You get into 500, 700, 1,000, it starts to become unrealistic to do that. But with 400 to 500 people, we were still able to pull this together with some remote participation as well, and the CEO and a couple of key leaders in the company would get up every Monday, share the numbers. How did we do last week? What are we looking for this week? Any key challenges coming up this week? Then there was always one … you know how Steve Jobs did one, “Oh, and there’s one more thing,” there was always that one more thing at the end where it was something fun, something interesting, something unique, something that somebody was doing, and it really brought the company together and aligned them in a way that expressed what the goal was for the coming weeks of the organization.

Another technique that I’ve seen done, similar in design but focused on the smaller group of people, is demo days. Regular demo days. What happens in these demo days is teams stand up in front of their colleagues, they invite – in my experience you invite as broad a group as you can and then you see who actually shows us – but the goal is to demonstrate whatever it is that you’ve been working on for the last cycle. Two weeks, a month, a quarter, whatever it is. There’s always been this stigma that says demo days, you want us to show something working, something cool that you launched into the market, something that you actually shipped. But I actually disagree with that. What you can actually show in these demo days is not just perhaps the work that you’ve completed, but the learning that you’ve come up with. The experiments that you’ve run, things that you thought were going to work but didn’t work, and what you learned from that. They’re super valuable nuggets to share during these demo days because it proves to the rest of the organization that you’re making some mistakes and that you’re not getting fired and that the organization encourages this type of quick learning activity in order to get you on the right path more quickly.

Halelly: I like that. Is this related to your suggestion that humility is something that more leaders need to practice and organizations in general?

Jeff: Yes. It is, in fact. This is a quality, this is one of those things where I get a lot of pushback because, again, it doesn’t feel like humility is something that’s shown by a lot of leaders. I want to be clear, when I say humility, humility is not an avocation of vision. It is not an avocation of leadership. Humility is simply – and I use an expression that I learned from a fantastic former colleague, friend and consultant these days. Her name is Janice Frasier and she’s out of the Bay Area and I learned this phase from her – strong opinions loosely held. That’s what humility is. In other words, as a leader, you have experience. You have expertise. You have gut instinct. You have competitive knowledge, etc. You’re going to have strong opinions about how something should be or should be done or executed. In the fact of evidence, market-based evidence collected by your teams, you should be willing to change your mind. That’s it. That’s humility. So if you provide the space for your teams to learn and collect that evidence, if they come back with it and it challenges your strong opinion, humility is letting that strong opinion go in the face of evidence.

Halelly: I like that. So that you’re not one of those, “I’ve got my mind made up, don’t confuse me with the facts” people.

Jeff: Exactly. Right.

Halelly: You told me you have these great stories of the transformation that helped create, like was it a big American bank or an education company or with an auto trader. I’d love to hear one of those stories.

Jeff: Sure. There are a lot to choose from. I love the Auto Trader UK story because I got a chance to work with an organization for some time and they are a really great example of a legacy organization. They’re about a 45-year-old company at this point – not ancient by any standards – but they started off as strictly a print publication, very similar to Auto Trader in the United States. They were a classifieds listing for selling cars. That was it. And at it’s peak, the number one location in the United Kingdom for doing this and they employed 4,000 people in an effort to sell advertisements, print the paper, distribute it, etc. Over the course of their evolution, the internet became a thing and they began to digitize these products. Over the course of really the last decade or so, their transition away entirely from print to become strictly a digital company. Now, what’s fascinating about that is while they could strip away the physical portions of the operation, they couldn’t strip away 35 years of organizational inertia for ways of working. It was just a certain way they did things. They still thought of things in a print-based manner. They still thought about things in a very one-on-one, very personal, very “I’ll come to your car lot and we will talk about how we can put your used cars on the internet.” In the last five years, they recognized that as they were digitizing the business, they were still delivering new ideas, new features, new services to market very slowly. In fact, they were only doing it four times a year, every quarter, and it dawned on them that releasing new features, services, ideas into the market once a quarter means you only get a chance to learn four times a year.

They set out on a journey to increase their pace of learning. This is the fundamental difference in an organization that truly increases their agility and becomes a learning organization, a sense and respond organization, is that they set out to drive up their velocity of learning. Not just the velocity of delivering ideas to market. These things are symbiotic, to be clear, you need both, but their focus was the faster we can get ideas into customer’s hands, the faster whether or not we’re delivering value. So they implemented the infrastructure to do this. They changed their methods of working. They changed their meeting cadences. They changed how they were structured, the organizational design. Instead of having these silos of having sales and product marketing and then design and software engineering, they started building cross-functional teams, product, design, marketing, engineering sitting together, so they can all build a shared understanding of the customer and the problems they are trying to solve.

One of the best stories that I have from the experience of working with them is even after they did all of these things and they built the systems that allowed them to shift quickly and learn quickly, they still had to change the culture. It’s terrifying, as powerful as it is, it’s terrifying as a leader in these kind of software-driven organizations that anybody in the company can ship new code into customer’s hands anytime, as fast as they want. As empowering as that is for learning, it could be terrifying, because anybody can just change the way the system works. And the answer is yes.

Halelly: And your name is on it!

Jeff: And your name is on it and your customers are using it and they’ve got 80-plus percent market share, I think it’s close to 90 percent market share, which is tens of millions of people using this service on a daily basis. So they really had to work to build. The infrastructure gave them the ability to do this, but they had to incentivize the culture to feel like they could use it, and to get the managers – especially the middle management layer – to become increasingly more comfortable with letting the teams put these ideas out there. Because the systems allow us not to just launch to 50 million people, but you can launch to 5,000 people, and learn how that affects their behavior before we scale that out to 50,000, five million, 50 million, etc.

Their transition is amazing. First of all, they’re significantly a leaner organization today. 4,000 people at their peak as a print-only publication, and I think they’re about 1,000 people these days. And they are still the market leader. Their capabilities to learn on a weekly basis have allowed them to build adjacent businesses, so they’re building services for dealers, for car manufacturers, for auction houses, etc., and the mindset shift to a continuously-learning organization that allowed them to do this.

Halelly: I realize at the moment that we are remiss in describing your model. We’re having this entire conversation and we’re using nomenclature that we never really defined about what this sense and respond model really is. I would really like for you to share how the listeners can maybe set up some kind of an experiment and measure it. So I think maybe we’ll do that in that order. Describe generally your model, and then give us a homework assignment.

Jeff: The sense and respond model basically has three steps to it, so there’s actually a third step to sense and respond. The first step is ship, and by ship I mean get something into the hands of your customer. Now, I’ll talk about what that something is in just a second, but something into the hands of your customer. Sense means to measure how that affects their behavior. Either quantitatively or qualitatively. Either way is fine. Both is even better. Respond means, “What did we learn from that and what are we going to do about it? Are we going to continue putting this thing in the customer’s hands or are we going to roll it back, change it, optimize it, move it forward?” The goal is to get through that process as quickly as you can because the faster you get through that process, the lower the investment. The lower the investment, the easier it is to be wrong. The less painful it is to be wrong. That’s the sense and respond model that we’re talking about. That’s really driven, again, by this software-based mindset of continuous improvement of systems.

Running experiments is the thing that you ship. You have an idea for a product, a service, a feature, an initiative, that you’d like to put into the hands of your users, your staff, your customers, whatever. My question to you is, what’s the most important thing you need to learn first about that idea? That’s a question about risk. So as you’re thinking about the next initiative that you’re working on, ask yourself this question – what’s the most important thing I need to learn first about this? That’s an attempt for you to identify all the risky things about that particular idea. Now, when you identify the riskiest thing about that idea, that’s the thing you need to learn first. As yourself the next question – what’s the least amount of work I need to do to learn whether this is a real risk and it’s going to break my idea or not? And the answer to that question is your experiment. Now, my challenge for you is to try to do the absolute least amount of work. The key here is that this is not laziness. Again, this comes from kind of a lean world, which is how do we reduce waste? Why would you do anything more than you have to to learn the next most important thing? If it helps, when I teach this to teams and when I do consulting, I always ask them to answer that last question with, “If I gave you one day, how would you test your idea? If I gave you a week, how would you test your idea? If I gave you a month, how would you test your idea?” And it starts to really think about how to run these experiments in the cheapest, fastest possible way.

Halelly: When you have more constraints, you’re able to maybe be more innovative in figuring something out and the shortest path.

Jeff: It’s amazing what you’ll learn from what feel like insignificant activities. Literally going and observing people, or going and having three customer conversations or building something out of cardboard and showing it to someone. It sounds trivial, but the learning is massive. Especially given the level of investment you put in.

Halelly: Do you have a small example, like maybe team-based example or something that relates to people that are listening? Let’s say they’re a middle manager, and they’re thinking about how to develop their team to embrace this kind of thinking, this shift. So what would be a small example?

Jeff: The best thing you can do as a middle manager to encourage your team to experiment, learn, ship, sense and respond is to reframe their work assignment. The way that you assign work to them, reframe it as a problem to solve rather than a solution to implement. Instead of telling them to build a thing or make a thing, ask them to solve a specific business problem and give them a measure of success as a change in customer behavior, user, staff behavior. A change in human behavior. So instead of saying, “Build me this system or we want this application,” say, “We keep losing customers to the competitor over there. I would like to reduce the number of customers that we lose to the competitor by 50 percent. Solve that problem.” In so doing, you create the bandwidth for the team to explore solutions and to figure out the best combination of value, channel, delivery method, technology to do that, because the measure of success is not so much what they build, it’s having impacted customer behavior, the outcome.

Halelly: I’d like to talk to you a lot more, but I think this gets us a good start. Of course people can pick up your book and learn more from you in many other ways which we will mention in a moment. Before you give a super actionable small thing that people can do this week in addition to what you’ve already given us that’s very actionable, tell us what’s new and exciting on your horizon? What’s got your attention these days?

Jeff: The most exciting thing that’s happening for me right now is Sense and Respond Press, our business book publishing press, which again came from a series of smaller experiments. We didn’t just launch a business book publishing press because we felt like it. We ran a series of experiments. We tweeted out some ideas that got some traction. We wrote some articles around the ideas that got those tractions. We then experimented with self-publishing, first to learn how to do it and second to see if people would actually buy a book on these topics and then we launched the Press. Sense and Respond Press is a publishing house for busy executives, for leaders who are looking for practical advice. Our books are very short. They’re anywhere between 30 to 60 pages, and they’re focused on one specific topic with actionable things that you can do at the end of every book. So that’s really gotten me excited and getting the word out. We’ve got seven books in print now and three or four more lined up for the rest of this year. Super excited about it.

Halelly: That’s cool. All right guys, as you’re listening to this, this is a good kind of way to think about getting your thought leadership out there and enhancing your personal brand. We’ve talked about that in other episodes. I’ll link to those in the show notes. Jeff, it’s been very interesting. Before we tell people exactly how to keep in touch with you, what’s one specific action that listeners can take today, tomorrow, this week, that you think can upgrade their leadership skills based on your particular lens of the world?

Jeff: The best thing you can do this week is go talk to three people. Three customers, three users, three employees on your team, and particularly if you’re a senior leader, I recommend you go talk to three people two or three layers down the hierarchy from you as well. It’s absolutely enlightening to understand how people view their experiences using your product, your company, consuming services form you, and it’s an extremely powerful skill to have as you try to understand how to make things better.

Halelly: When you say go talk to them, do you have a particular question you lead with?

Jeff: Yes, I do actually. The best question that I have in all these interviews is, “Tell me about the last time that you …” and then fill in the thing that they do for you or with you or consume from you. For example, if you’re an online retailer, tell me about the last time you bought jeans online. Something along those lines. Fill that in and then let them tell you that story.

Halelly: All right! What’s the best way for people to keep learning from you, all this interesting stuff, and stay in touch in terms of your website, where to follow you on social media, all that good stuff?

Jeff: I’m very easy to find and that’s by design. I’m on LinkedIn and feel free to connect there. I write a monthly piece on medium.com. You’ll find me on there as well. My website is JeffGothelf.com. Always a good place to go. And then lastly on Twitter my username is @JBoogie. We’ll just leave it at that.

Halelly: All right, now I’m really curious, but we’ll leave it at that. JBoogie. Well, it’s been fun and enlightening and I thank you for taking time today for the TalentGrowers to learn from you Jeff, thank you so much.

Jeff: My pleasure. Thanks so much for having me on the show.

Halelly: Okay TalentGrowers, that’s it for another episode. I hope you will take action based on Jeff’s advice. Actually, he gave you a couple of different actions – one bigger, one smaller – and so create that experiment so you can practice applying his insights and trying this kind of a shift in your mindset. Also do that last assignment, which is go talk to three people. Let me know how that works. I’d love to hear. I really appreciate you listening to the TalentGrow Show. If you’re not already on my mailing list, then that means every week you’re missing out on an opportunity to get right into your inbox an announcement about what the latest episode is, a teaser about what next week’s episode is, and always some kind of a quick tip or learning opportunity. My newsletters are super short and if you sign up on the show notes page over on TalentGrow.com/podcast, then you’ll get my free guide “10 Mistakes that leaders make and how to avoid them” so that you don’t make those mistakes. I hope that you will go do that real quick. Doesn’t take very long and it’s all free so why not? I am Halelly Azulay, your leadership development strategist here at TalentGrow and this is the TalentGrow Show. Until the next time, make today great.

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