Ep033: Courageous Leadership with Bill Treasurer

TalentGrow Show episode 33 Courageous Leadership with Bill Treasurer hosted by Halelly Azulay

In this episode Halelly talks with Bill Treasurer, author, speaker, and Chief Encouragement Officer of Giant Leap Consulting, about common leadership mistakes and his advice for becoming a more courageous leader. They discuss why fear has become the “four-letter F word” and why courage (coupled with morality) is so important. They get into an interesting conversation about the best approach to the tension in leadership advice between ‘be yourself’ and ‘fake it till you make it’ and why being congruent is really important (and Bill “sings” its praises… literally ;) ). And Bill suggests we take a stance against some lessons that were ingrained into us in our childhood – listen to find out which ones.

Listen to Stitcher

What you’ll learn:

  • What was the unusual ‘job’ that Bill had at the beginning of his career (3:21)
  • What are the four key skills to good leadership and stop the complexification of leadership? (5:30)
  • One of the most common leadership mistakes (6:15)
  • What is the “holy question”? Why do leaders fail to answer is and why it’s important to do so? (6:27)
  • Why are questions really important (8:00)
  • What is Bill’s definition of courage? (8:55 and 10:20)
  • What was the way Bill’s coach helped him get more courageous (9:25)
  • Why we must couple morality with courage (10:41)
  • Why are we so afraid of fear? (it’s the 4-letter F word…) (11:44)
  • What is a youth lesson that you need to learn to denounce as an adult (12:43)
  • What’s a cute story that Bill tells in one of his vlogs (and here in the podcast) about his kids and him during their trip to Spain that exposes the gap we often have between our work-self and our home-self 11:29 (Bill sings a kids song on my podcast!) (13:49)
  • What is a common struggle for congruency that most of us experience and why it ends up feeling phony – and what does Bill recommend instead? (16:10)
  • We discuss the counter-intuitive advice for ‘faking it till you make it’ self-development and how do we marry it with the advice for being more congruent (17:32)
  • Why is ‘act as-if’ similar to 12-step-program advice? (18:40)
  • What is the key for distinguishing the best way to use this advice? (19:13)
  • Do the ends justify the means if your goal is a moral one? (20:00)
  • What is counter-intuitive advice Bill gives about what is a leader’s job? (21:57)
  • What is the new book that Bill is writing (and why does Halelly say it has a naughty title)? (22:59)
  • What’s so good about humiliating situations for growing us as leaders? (23:33)
  • What’s Bill suggestion for you to upgrade your leadership skills? (hint: it’s a question you should ask yourself) (24:54)
  • What’s the baseball mitt story Bill tells to help us understand his advice? (26:02)


About Bill Treasurer

Bill Treasurer is the Chief Encouragement Officer (CEO) of Giant Leap Consulting, Inc. He is the author of international best-seller Courage Goes To Work, which introduced the new management practice of courage building and Leaders Open Doors, which became the #1 leadership training book on Amazon. All royalties from Leaders Open Doors are donated to programs that support kids with special needs.

Bill has designed leadership and succession programs for emerging and experienced leaders for NASA, Saks Fifth Avenue, UBS Bank, Walsh Construction, Spanx, the Pittsburgh Pirates, the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs, and many others.

Bill holds a Master’s degree from the University of Wisconsin and a Bachelor’s degree from West Virginia University where he attended school on a full athletic scholarship. In addition to being an author & a business owner, Bill is a former U.S. High Diving Team captain, a cancer survivor, and the father of three children.


Announcer: Welcome to the TalentGrow Show, where you can get actionable results-oriented insight and advice on how to take your leadership, communication and people skills to the next level and become the kind of leader people want to follow. And now, your host and leadership development strategist, Halelly Azulay.

Halelly: Hey there, welcome back to the TalentGrow Show. I’m Halelly Azulay, your leadership development strategist and this is episode 33 with my guest Bill Treasurer. Bill Treasurer is a person who started his career with a pretty unusual kind of job. You can listen to find out what it was, but he is now well known as a speaker, author and consultant, especially around the topic of courageous leadership. So Bill shares some common leadership mistakes and how he can help move people to become more courageous. We get onto a discussion a little bit about being afraid of fear and being congruent, and this tension between being yourself and faking it till you make it. It’s coincidentally the topic of my most recent blog post, which was released last week, if you’re listening to this show as it’s released. And I hope that you’ll check that out as well. It’s over on the TalentGrow blog page, talentgrow.com/blog/be-yourself. Bill and I talk about this tension and he gives some pretty sage advice about it. Bill is also, I’m pretty sure, the first guest to sing on the show, so he sings a cute little children’s song as part of a story he tells about a lesson that he learned from his kids. I hope that you will enjoy that one, and of course we always end with actionable advice and this show is no different. So, take a listen and go over to the show notes page to see all the links and the resources and of course to leave comments about what you’re taking to hear from this episode or how you have implemented the advice or any relevant stories that you have to share about any of the things that we discussed on it, and of course if there’s any comments you have about what you’d like to hear more about in the future, that is all great fodder for great comments on the TalentGrow.com/podcast/episode33 page. Because that’s where the discussion can happen. Anyway, are you ready to listen to Bill Treasurer? Here we go, episode 33.

I am so glad to be back with my friend, speaker, author, consultant and CEO of Giant Leap Consulting, Bill Treasurer. Bill, welcome to the TalentGrow Show.

Bill: Halelly, I’m so happy to be here and looking forward to our time together.

Halelly: Me too. And I’m so looking forward to sharing some of your wisdom with the listeners. Before we start, I always like to give people a little bit of a quick snippet into how you made it to this point and where you started, so could you just give us a very fast, brief overview of your journey?

Bill: Sure. I have a courage building company called Giant Leap Consulting, and we’ve been in business now for this is our 14th year. Prior to coming to Giant Leap Consulting, I worked with a company called Accenture, one of the world’s largest management consulting companies. Before that, I was a vice president of a company called Executive Adventure, which does outdoor experiential teambuilding. Before that, a little company called High Performing Systems, and way, way back in my career, I started out as a professional high diver, diving from heights that scaled to over 100 feet into small pools as a member of the U.S. High Diving Team.

Halelly: Which of course no podcast guest has ever told me that that’s what they did at the beginning of their career! I remember when I first met you, you were a keynoter at a conference at – I believe at the time I was really just attending that conference. Later on I spoke at that conference, and later on I was the chair of organizing that conference for chapter leaders of our professional association back in the D.C. area. And that was just, that blew my mind, your story about starting as a high diver. It is just such an unusual story, and of course it ties into your interests in courage and most of your career has centered around that topic. And of course maybe we’ll touch on that a little bit today. One of the most frustrating things about my podcast is that I want to talk for three hours, not 30 minutes! But most people don’t have that much time to sit there and listen to us. So you’ve published how many books by now?

Bill: So I’m working on my fourth book. The fourth book comes out in the January timeframe, but I’m also the author of an off-the-shelf facilitator trainer program, which is kind of bigger than a book. So I don’t know whether to include it when I tell people that I’ve written four books and it becomes the fifth one, or not include it because it actually was bigger than a book. So four official books and this big, large, off-the-shelf facilitator training program called Courageous Leadership.

Halelly: Yeah, that sounds like a lot of work. So the most recent published book you have was one that I reviewed on my blog. It’s the second edition of Leaders Open Doors. And it’s a really nice book. I recommend it to people because it’s a short read. It’s not like one of those things that you can use to hold down your house in a tornado. And in that book, you say that there is this thing called the complexifiication of leadership, which that word is an oxymoron in and of itself, since it’s so difficult to say! And you say that we should simplify leadership and follow four key skills to instill optimism instead of fear in the hearts of people. And those skills you say are to know your people, match their development opportunities to their development needs, have a clear picture of the desired results you want from these opportunities, and to provide them ongoing support. This I think is very, very right. And I’m so glad that you say that the real growth happens in the discomfort zone, which of course is a topic that we’ve covered many times on this podcast. So, you yourself as a leader, as a developer of leaders, as an author about leadership, you see a lot of mistakes and you probably have made many mistakes, because all leaders do in the discomfort zone. What do you think are one or two of the most common leadership mistakes that you’ve seen that you can help fix?

Bill: I think that one of the most common mistakes is not answering the holy question. I had somebody once told me that Bill, these are the four most important words that you’ll ever learn in the English language. He called it the holy question: What do you want? I think a lot of people sort of open up the day and open up the door and sort of let their life run themselves. And unless you can answer with specificity and a great deal of clarity what it is that you want, it’s hard for other people to help you get what you want because you don’t know what it is. So I think the first order of business in deciding how to be more courageous, how to be a better leader, is to decide what it is that you want, and then you can ask yourself, “So courage for the sake of what? If that’s what I want, how do I move myself forward and who are the people I need to interact with to get me closer to getting what I want?” So I think that’s one of the mistakes that people make, they sort of just exist. They react to the day. They think that their life is just going to unfold for them without having any intentionality. It kind of goes down to this simple idea of making sure that you’ve got a big goal in front of you and knowing what you want becomes that goal.

Halelly: I love that. So that your life doesn’t happen to you. You happen to it, in a way.

Bill: Exactly.

Halelly: Ah, very good. So it sounds like maybe just first thinking about what your goal is and maybe even writing it down or telling other people about it probably would help you with it.

Bill: Definitely. You know, and along the lines of that, too, I like questions. I like good questions that people can help resolve and answer for themselves. And you have to grapple with the question. In fact, you may not be able to answer what do you want. It might take you six months to arm wrestle that question down to the ground. But once you find out with specificity and then you have clarity, now you know which way to go. Another really good question to ask yourself is where am I playing it too safe? Where am I playing it too safe in my life or in my career, and maybe I’m the only one who knows it and I’m hiding out from myself, but how do I get off this platform of safety so that I can move into that discomfort zone, whatever it might be? So it really starts to point you in the direction of the next right, courageous move for yourself is to pinpoint, again, what is that aspect of myself? What is that capability that I’ve been avoiding? Where am I playing it too safe? Because that’s going to tell me the next courageous move that I should make.

Halelly: So we’ve mentioned the word courage and courageous several times. Why don’t we take a second to hear what is your definition of that?

Bill: Yeah, and so for perspective, this whole idea of courage and courage-building – in fact, it’s one of my websites, couragebuilding.com – and that’s because I consider myself a courage builder. Like you mentioned, I’m the CEO of this company, Giant Leap Consulting, and CEO to me stands for Chief Encouragement Officer. And it came about because I had a coach who held me accountable to my own potential and helped me find my courage. Yes, I was a high diver, but I have a profound fear of heights. And I had a coach who would put me on a hydraulic lift diving board. I was just a one-meter specialist diving board guy. I’m the low board, just like you or anybody else. But in order to get a scholarship for college, you’ve got to be able to get a high board list of dives, and I had a coach who helped me do that, literally by moving me into discomfort by using a hydraulic lift diving board that he could move from one meter to one and a half meters to two meter to eventually to three meter. And it took like almost a year to get that full list of dives that way. So it gave me my whole life. Now, I help people get off of whatever metaphorical high dive platforms that they’re sitting on, and I become the coach helping them take whatever high dive. Because all of us are called to take high dives personally and professionally. My definition of courage is acting on what is right, despite being afraid or uncomfortable when facing situations of uncertainty or opportunity. So the first order of business is to act on the right thing.

Now, there’s even books on this idea of moral leadership. I can’t tell you, Halelly, what the morality is. But I can tell you, you ought to bring your own morals to the equation. Courage can be used and applied in ways that are productive or unproductive. They can be used towards malevolent needs or benevolent needs. A person who steals a car at 17 years old is being courageous. But they’re doing it in the wrong way. Just as leaders can be, leadership itself is very potent, but it’s also very neutral. You can be a leader who does things for good, or you can be a leader who does things for bad. Hitler was a leader. He’s not a good leader, he’s a malevolent leader, an evil leader. But he was a leader. A person can be courageous toward good things or toward bad things. So bring morality to courage. The first sentence that I always use is acting on what is right. Again, despite being afraid or uncomfortable when facing situations of uncertainty or opportunity.

Halelly: And we’re so afraid of fear. It’s like we’re allergic to it, right? We run away the minute we feel it. So often that instinct – that fight or flight instinct – just kicks in and we avoid the situation.

Bill: Yeah, it’s the four-letter F word. Fear, it can absolutely inhibit our ability and willingness to take risks. And yet it’s partly engrained in us because we learn it as little kids. Our parents tell us don’t talk to strangers, don’t play with matches, don’t cross the road without looking both ways. We learn all the don’ts. And you’ve got to learn them, right? But you still have to talk to strangers. You still have to learn how to use matches. You still have to cross that road. So you’ve got to learn the dos too, but we place this overemphasis on don’ts. And I’ll give you another example. We’re taught at a young age – sometimes even with our religious traditions – respect your adults, right? Like honor your mother and your father. And I’m not saying to not honor them. But at some point in your progression as a leader, you’ve got to become your own authority and that might mean standing up to other authority. And it takes a tremendous amount of courage to do so. But if you’re just going to be a puppet to your past and be a domesticated little boy or girl who never grew up, then it’s hard for you to experience your courage. So sometimes having courage means going against so many of the lessons we learned as a little kids in order to be not troublesome.

Halelly: And taking stance, even when it’s not popular or even when you worry that other people won’t agree with you. That is, that’s scary for people. You have a lot of great resources available on your website and of course we’re going to link to it in the show notes so people can go and check them out. One of them, I watched several of your video blogs – do you call them vlogs?

Bill: Yeah, sure, I’m fine with vlogs.

Halelly: That’s what I call mine. It’s such a weird word to say! So in one of them you told a very sweet story about your trip to Spain with your kids, but the message in that story was very much about how people have a gap between their business self and their home self, or their sort of non-business self that we show up often very differently and I see this all the time in my work. When people ask me, “What do you mean? Do you mean, am I like this at work or am I like this at home because I’m different?” And you were making the point that we should close the gap and we should have sort of one self that shows up consistently everywhere. I’d love to hear more about that because I think that there’s tons of fear associated with that. Because there’s a really big risk to showing your home self at work, and people, I think people are very worried about that. I’d love to hear more about what you think is their big risk? What do you think is their big worry around that? And why do you think that they should not separate those?

Bill: Well, I’ll share the story too because it’s a quick story and I think it is kind of cute. We were in Spain and I heard my little son, he was singing this song. He was singing, “Down in the bubbily boo, underwater. Down in the bubbily boo …” And it sort of became our little theme song for part of the trip. But then we’d mix it up. My other son would say, “Do it as an old lady!” and you’d go, “Down in the bubbily boo, underwater,” and then somebody would say, “Do it as a Russian Czar,” and, “Down in the bubbily boo, underwater.” And then one of my sons said, “Do it as dad the business person.” And I was like, “What? Dad the business person?” I didn’t even know they had a construct of me as the business person. I thought they just experienced me as Dad. So my little son, he turns his head and puts on a very serious face and he goes, “Down in the bubbily boo, underwater.” And I was like, oh, man.

On the one hand it was funny. On the other hand there was a message in there! And the message was Dad-dad, who you are at the dinner table with us at night is really different than dad we see on the phone or hear you talking to other business people, and this struggle for congruency, I think a lot of people experience. Certainly I have experienced it. This feeling like I’ve got to be somebody at work who says the same buzzwords and speaks the same lingo as everybody else. And after a while it can be a little fake. Like we get a little phony with our language. “Well, the strategic value at proposition is to make sure that we have the right share of wallet from our consumers,” and we don’t even talk like people anymore! And so I think that congruency … I recognize there will always be some gap, and maybe even some appropriateness for that gap. But the more that you can be the person in real life that you are and in your work life, the less exhausting it’s going to be. Because the more you’re having to separate those two identities, and the greater that separation that is, the more effort it takes, I think. So I think that ultimately, to be at peace with yourself, to be able to sort of say, “This is who I am,” is first of all I think it’s for yourself, like I say, it’s centering. And it puts you at peace. But I think it also gives you strength because it shows that you’re comfortable in your own skin. You’re not squirrely in your own skin.

Halelly: I’d like to bring up something, I know that you’ve been thinking about it. I struggle with this a little bit in terms of advice. I mean, I don’t struggle because I know what the advice is, but it seems counterintuitive to me. But, I know you recently wrote an article about faking it. And this idea that when you’re learning new skills, or when you’re trying to go into the discomfort zone, sometimes you have to act as if at first, and then you kind of grow into it. And I think that most people, when we talk about this whole “be congruent” and then we tell them that they should try something on for size, even when it doesn’t feel natural – like don’t just be yourself. Let’s say my knee-jerk reaction, my most shoes off self reaction right now would be to curse at your or to yell at you or whatever. And I’m working on being a more emotionally intelligent leader or I’m working on not being a jerk at work or something like this, controlling myself, so I need to control my natural reaction and be someone else first so that I can be respectful. Whatever it is that I’m working on. So I think that there’s this weird tension between telling people, “Just be yourself,” and telling people, “No, be this other person until you grow into being that.”

Bill: Yeah, I think that there is a tension around that. I think that this idea of act as if, or fake it till you make it, I’ll tell you where it’s really popular, Halelly, is in 12-step programs. You know, for people that are having to give something up that they have been habitual with, they may not know what it’s like to be a sober person for the first time in their life. They may not know what it’s like to not be co-dependent for the first time in their life, and because they don’t know what it’s like – and they see other people saying that they’ve got it, that they don’t yet have it – they have to kind of fake it each day until they’re able to acquire it. Because it’s such a foreign experience. I think what matters most is are you true? Are you being true to yourself? Are you being true to others? Even if you’re having to adopt an identity that is outside of who you are for this moment. And by the way, in the service of getting better skills, or in the service of getting something different and better because of it, then I think that it’s worth it, it seems to me, to act as if. If you’re putting it in the case of the person in the 12-step program, they’re having to fake it until they make it to be better. They’re having to fake it to be a better person, a more whole person, a more complete person, a more centered and grounded person. But it’s still a fraudulent identity for a little while until they actually become that sober person or that non-co-dependent person.

Halelly: So maybe like earlier, you were saying that you lead with your morals or you lead with your values. So maybe if you’re doing something in service of those values that you believe that the ends justify the means, and the means help you reach that end that is a good end, a moral end, then maybe then that’s okay?

Bill: Yeah, and this conversation is interesting to me and it’s helpful to me actually. I think what it might be is, so for example your example of maybe there’s a person who has a lot of great intelligence from an intellectual standpoint, and they tend to speak really bluntly like you were talking about in terms before of the acquisition of emotional intelligence. For that truth teller, for that honest – maybe blunt force object when they are being honest – their value is honesty. So maybe what they’re having to do is acquire a new value too. It doesn’t mean that they can’t still have honesty, that they’re also now having a new value in terms of the treatment of people. And because they’re acquiring it for the first time and they don’t yet have that skill and again it’s in the service of making them better and more complete and whole for a little while they have to be … it may feel like they’re faking being nice or they’re faking listening, or they’re faking attending to the needs of somebody else, when they’re so used to being honest all the time and they feel that it’s a little dishonest to be that person. But ultimately, it’s through the practice and the discomfort of acquiring, of being a little bit fraudulent for a little while until you can actually acquire it and make yourself more complete with the new value.

Halelly: This is why there’s a million books on leadership! It’s so damn complex! You want us to simplify, but it’s just … you know. Do this but not this, and then this.

Bill: Easy peasy!

Halelly: Easy, just follow me. So is there any other kind of counterintuitive advice that you give? Something that you believe strongly that can be true that you think most other people say the opposite of?

Bill: Yeah, you know, I guess maybe I would say … I say it maybe in a different way. I say that a leader’s job is to make people uncomfortable. And some people find that off-putting. But you know my work – I am not a fear stoker. I’m not about stoking fear because I can tell you there’s a lot of research to back up how debilitating it can be on performance. But what I do mean is that a leader has to nudge you into discomfort to promote your own growth, and to keep you from being complacent. So that’s one thing I would say that maybe at least the way that I say it is different. That your job as a leader is to make people uncomfortable, and that starts too with yourself as a leader. You’ve got to be occasionally doing things that give you sweaty palms to show that you’re still growing and challenging yourself and being willing to experience discomfort and experience your courage at the same time too.

Halelly: So you’re working on a new book?

Bill: I am.

Halelly: And it has a naughty title!

Bill: It does.

Halelly: I mean, if that’s what’s new and exciting? Or is there something else new and exciting that’s on your horizon that’s got your attention these days?

Bill: No, that’s really the new and exciting. The funny thing is my first book was about risk taking. My second book was along that same line, was about courage. My third book was really about opportunity and simplicity, when leaders go to, Leaders Open Doors. My new book, I think my new book is really about the importance of what I call transformative humiliation. That it’s really about confidence and humility, but we gain humility through authentically humiliating experiences. So the new book’s kind of about how do you not just recover from failure, but how do you integrate the lessons after you fail? So it’s called A Leadership Kick in the Ass. And the idea is that there are some situations that are just so perplexing and so crushing that they cause us to question everything that we’ve thought about in terms of our leadership, and everything that we’ve become up until this point gets dismantled. And how we reconfigure ourselves on the back side of that will make the big difference on whether we get to be a fully expressed leader or compromised leader. So it’s called A Leadership Kick in the Ass, and I’m right in the thick of it right now. I’m actually on the fourth version of the manuscript.

Halelly: Wow. That’s exciting. And I know you’re collecting a lot of real life stories from people, so I look forward to when it comes out so I can read it and maybe you can come back on the show and we can talk about that more then, huh?

Bill: I would love to! The cool thing is so far it’s gotten a lot of good endorsements including from Ken Blanchard and Marsha Goldsmith, so that’s pretty good company to be in.

Halelly: Yes it is. Awesome. All right, well, before we tell people how to keep in touch with you so they can be in the know of what’s going on with you and all the good stuff that you put out there, I always like to make sure that we leave listeners with something really specific that they can do today, tomorrow, this week, to upgrade their own leadership skills. So what’s one specific action that you recommend?

Bill: I definitely think the answer to that question, the holy question – what it is that you want – and I also think to ask yourself what’s better? And this one comes from my friend Jim Kouzes and Barry Posner co-authors of The Leadership Challenge. They also wrote a really new book and it’s great by the way. It’s called Learning Leadership. They say that good leaders constantly ask the question, “What’s better?” And I think that that’s a good question to constantly be asking ourselves, to not be satisfied with good enough or how the world is today. Let’s constantly be saying, “How can we make it better tomorrow?”

Halelly: So what’s a practice that people can incorporate with something like that? Do they just keep asking that themselves incessantly or is there a particular way that you think works best of how to incorporate that into their practice?

Bill: I don’t know. I guess I would say sometimes it’s the nitty gritty small stuff. So, for example, the other night … I’m a dad. I’ve got two 12-year-olds at home and a 9-year-old. So I’ve got two boys and a girl. And I bought a baseball mitt with my sons, so I could throw the ball with them. My daughter has cerebral palsy so it’s not quite as easy for her to throw the ball. And you know, so I got a baseball mitt, great. And I’m out there playing with the boys. What is better? Well, the mitt could be better. So I got oil and I oiled the mitt and I taught the boys how to oil the mitt and I wrapped the mitt up for a few days with a ball inside of it, and now our mitts are nice and moist and they’re floppy and they’re fun to play with. So it’s just taking what you’re doing already and saying, “What’s a small thing that I can do to improve on this?” And I think the smaller, the more nitty gritty, the better. And I find it in writing, too. Like I’ll write a sentence and think, “Okay, that sentence works. But I wonder is there just one word in that sentence that I can change that gives it a little bit more pop or cause it to resonate more?” So I think go small, instead of go big when it comes to looking for what’s better.

Halelly: Great, good. Thank you for those examples. I think that really helps. So, well, we’re coming up on time here, and I know that people are going to want to stay in touch with you, and to learn more from you. I will link to everything you mentioned in the show notes. How can people stay in touch with you and all the good stuff you produce?

Bill: Sure. Well, the easiest thing is just sort of Google me. Like if you go Bill Treasurer you’ll definitely find stuff. But the more specific place is couragebuilding.com, leadersopendoors.com, BillTreasurer.com. Those would be the best places to get me.

Halelly: Wow, you have a lot of websites!

Bill: I do.

Halelly: Cool. Very good. Well listen, Bill, it’s been a pleasure speaking with you today. I really appreciate you sharing your knowledge with our listeners and I hope that people take your advice and also stay in touch with you. And until the next time, make today great!

Thank you for tuning in. I hope that you enjoyed this episode. I’d love to hear what you thought, as I said, in the comments on the show notes page, which is of course where all of the links are to everything that we mentioned on the show including my recent blog post that happens to be on a very similar topic, this idea of should you be yourself or should you fake it till you make it? Or is there some in between solution? So go over there and check that out. And I have a challenge for you. Would you please send a link to this episode or maybe just to the show in general to two people? If every listener sends the link to two people, to help them also enjoy the content that I put out freely, then that means that I can triple my listening audience. So it’s the same amount of work that I do, but it can have triple the impact. And this is very appealing to me and I hope that you’ll help me out. If every person just does that, just send it to two people that you know that you think could enjoy this, or would benefit from it, you would help me so much. And it would take two seconds of your time. Would you do it please? I thank you.

Well, I’m Halelly Azulay and I’m your leadership development strategist, here on the TalentGrow Show. And until the next time, I hope that you’ll make today great.

Announcer: Thanks for listening to the TalentGrow Show, where we help you develop your talent to become the kind of leader that people want to follow. For more information, visit TalentGrow.com.

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