Is there a difference between taking leadership and giving leadership? And, if so, does it really make that big a difference in your ability to lead? My guest says “yes” to both! Best-selling author Bob Burg is a sought-after speaker at company leadership and sales conferences sharing the platform with everyone from today’s business leaders and broadcast personalities to even a former U.S. President. In this fast-paced conversation, Bob describes the five keys to legendary leadership from his book, The Go-Giver Leader, and the importance of creating a win-win value trade the core of all your interactions. We even discuss the purpose of life, the key to happiness, a common mistake leaders make, and one actionable tip that will stretch you to become an even better leader.
What you'll learn:
Leadership is something you need to learn – you aren’t born with it (or at least most people aren’t) (5:00)
The Go-Giver Leader, Bob’s new book, which is a parable geared toward leaders learning to be great leaders using the principles of Bob’s earlier book, The Go-Giver (6:00)
What’s the core message of both books that makes life better AND improves it from a financial perspective, too (6:30)
What’s different between The Go-Giver Leader philosophy of leadership and some other leadership approaches? (7:54)
What are the five keys to great leadership? (9:35)
Many say ‘people are our biggest asset’… but is that being lived out by most enterprises? (10:44)
Why should you hold your employees first, customers second, and stockholders third in terms of your priorities? (11:38)
What’s the number one reason people leave companies? (Hint: it’s not the money) (12:54)
Why is it the leader’s job to hold both the big-picture vision AND the small-picture – to do the work? (13:10)
What does Bob mean when he says that leaders must ‘stand for something’? (13:48)
What’s the differentiator that makes for legendary leadership? What’s the perspective shift it requires? (15:10)
How does Bob work to eradicate the false dichotomy between a giving-first philosophy and self-interest or why you should never need to be self-sacrificial while having this giving-first mentality? (16:30)
People will follow and be influenced by people they know, like, and trust. Why we need to genuinely seek to generate ‘wins’ for others to really win ourselves. (18:30)
“Nobody is going to buy from you because you have a quota to meet.” If you want to influence others, tie what ‘you’ want with what ‘they’ value, and focus on the value for THEM. (19:19)
What’s the best way to create a win-win trade – value is in the eyes of the beholder – and why it’s something you should be working on regardless of your job or role (20:15)
Why you must have an authenticity as your guiding force so that you’re never doing any of this in an unethical way (21:11)
What’s our ultimate goal as human beings? (22:30)
What’s the way to live to be happy? (22:49)
What’s the biggest mistake leaders make? (23:15)
It’s LEAD not DEAL! What does that mean? (23:28)
What’s exciting and new in Bob’s world? (24:23)
What’s the opposite of a Go-Giver? (It’s a trick question!) (25:22)
What’s Bob’s actionable advice that you can take right away to upgrade your leadership skills? (It’ll stretch you for sure!) (25:43)
Resources and links
www.TheGoGiver.com – The Go-Giver Movement and books’ website
www.burg.com – Bob’s website
Bob's latest book, The Go-Giver Leader
Here's a quick video animation summary of Bob's book (with co-author David Mann), The Go-Giver: https://youtu.be/TNjNuFjn4hM
Download the 10 Mistakes Leaders Make and How to Avoid Them free tool!
Intro/outro music for The TalentGrow Show: "Why-Y" by Esta - a great band of exquisitely talented musicians, and good friends of mine.
About Bob Burg
Bob Burg is a sought-after speaker at company leadership and sales conferences on topics at the core of the Go-Giver books. A former television personality and top-producing salesperson, Bob has shared the platform with some of today’s top business leaders, broadcast personalities, coaches, athletes, and political leaders, including a former U.S. president.
In addition to coauthoring the bestselling Go-Giver books with John David Mann, Bob has authored a number of popular books, including the critically acclaimed, Endless Referrals: Network Your Everyday Contacts Into Sales and Adversaries into Allies. His total book sales are well over a million copies. He was named by the American Management Association as one of the Top 30 Most Influential Thought Leaders in Business for 2014.
Bob is an advocate, supporter, and defender of the free enterprise system and believes that the amount of money one makes is directly proportional to how many people one serves. He is also an unapologetic animal fanatic, and serves on the board of trustees of Furry Friends Adoption & Clinic in his hometown of Jupiter, Florida.
Announcer: Welcome to the TalentGrow Show, where you can get actionable results-oriented insight and advice on how to take your leadership, communication and people skills to the next level and become the kind of leader people want to follow. And now, your host and leadership development strategist, Halelly Azulay.
Halelly: Hey there, welcome back to the TalentGrow Show. I’m Halelly Azulay, your leadership development strategist with episode 30. This time we have Bob Burg. Bob asks, “Is there a difference between taking leadership and giving leadership? And if so, does it really make that big of a difference in your ability to lead?” He says yes to both of these. I am so excited to introduce you to Bob Burg. You probably have heard about him. You’ve probably read his now classic books The Go-Giver and before that Endless Referrals, and his brand new book is The Go-Giver Leader, and we talk about the five keys to leadership, to great leadership that he describes in that book. And the difference between the “go-giver leader” philosophy of leadership and many other leadership approaches. Bob really has a unique bend on how he looks at all human interactions and definitely a suggestion for how you can be more influential as a leader with authentic connection with people. We even get into your ultimate goal as a human being and the requirement for how to live a happy life. Bob does talk about what he thinks the biggest mistake leaders make is, and how to overcome it. And he gives a great actionable tip at the end that I think will really stretch you. So I look forward to sharing this episode with you and to hearing from you what you thought about it and your feedback. I hope that you’ll stick around and leave me comments on the webpage for the podcast. Without further ado, here we go, episode 30 with Bob Burg.
I am back here with by guest Bob Burg, and I’m very pleased that Bob has agreed to share some of his insights with the TalentGrow Show listeners. He is the sought-after speaker at company leadership and sales conferences and he has shared the platform with everyone from today’s business leaders to broadcast personalities and even former U.S. presidents. He is the author of a number of books on sales and marketing and influence, and he has sold over a million copies and was recently named by the American Management Association as one of the top 30 most influential thought leaders in business. Bob Burg, welcome to the TalentGrow Show.
Bob: Well thank you. It’s so great to be with you. I always love speaking with you.
Halelly: Thank you so much. I appreciate it. Bob and I met I can’t even remember how exactly we met, but several years ago and we have kept a professional friendship and I look forward to one day meeting you in person.
Halelly: Before we get started, I always ask my guests to give a very brief overview of their professional journey. Where did you start? How did you get to where you are today? I think that gives a really great kind of context for our listeners.
Bob: Began in broadcasting. I started out in radio and then I was in television. I was actually the late night news guy for a small ABC affiliate in the Midwest U.S. I was really not very good at it though. I could read the news but I certainly wasn’t a journalist. I was 24 years old, didn’t really have an understanding of the news and really at that age, I didn’t really care. So that doesn’t make for a good journalist. I quickly found myself in sales. I liked to say I graduated into sales. And the challenge there for me was that I didn’t know anything about sales. And so the training that the company provided I was first with was negligible at best, so I was kind of on my own. I floundered for a few months and I then went to a bookstore and I started coming across books by people like Tom Hopkins and Zig Ziglar and others and I began studying them and in a very short period of time, my sales began to go through the roof. And it’s important, I think, because it shows that if you have a system for doing something, if you learn how people have done it, you don’t need to reinvent the wheel. The wheel has already been invented, so long as you kind of plug into what someone else has already done, so long as their values are similar and so forth. I think you have a lot better chance at going a lot further a lot faster.
Halelly: That’s great advice.
Bob: And so that worked for me. I worked my way up to sales manager of a company, but the challenge with that was I really didn’t know anything about leadership. I was a good producer. I was a good salesperson, but that doesn’t necessarily translate into being a good leader. So, it kind of surprised me that I was very ineffective in what I was doing, and I think it’s at that point that I realized leadership was something I was going to need to learn. It wasn’t a matter of being a natural leader or something along those lines. So since that time, so anyway … while leadership has never been the focus of my professional career in terms of teaching it, it really has been sales and marketing and personal development and I’ve been doing that now for close to 30 years and it’s been a blast. I love doing it. I’ve really always been, or since that time, still been a student of leadership and grown a lot in that area. It’s a topic of real fascination to me.
Halelly: Wow, great. And you have just recently released a new book that is, I believe, aimed at leaders, which is called The Go-Giver Leader. So very interesting that you’re moving in the direction of, you know you say you don’t teach leadership, but now you clearly do!
Bob: Well, it’s funny how that sort of morphed. Because The Go-Giver itself, which I co-authored with John David Mann, a fantastic writer, and it’s a story. It’s a business parable and that came out basically 2008 it hit the bookshelves. And it’s really, it’s connected with people. And it’s been a fun ride with that book and the main character was Pindar, he was sort of the main mentor if you will. And while that book was geared more toward the salesperson, the entrepreneur, there were still a lot of leaders who read that book, and put that book through their organization and really saw it as a leadership book. And even though that’s not what it was intended to be, people would ask, “How does the go-giver itself, how does that apply to leadership? How does the basic premise …” The basic premise of the go-giver base simply on shifting one’s focus, and that was really the key. Shifting their focus from getting to giving. In this case, giving meaning constantly and consistently providing the value to others is not only a nice way to live life and conduct business, it’s a very financially profitable way as well. So we can take that message and in a sense, that’s exactly the core message of the go-giver leader, that shifting from an “I” focus or a “me” focus and moving that to an “other” focus creates a more powerful, lasting form of leadership.
Halelly: So do you think is that the key difference between your perspective on leadership and leadership development as compared to most of the other books out there? Or are there other ways in which your way of developing leaders is different?
Bob: I don’t think it’s a matter of being different in philosophy if you will from other leadership books out there. I find most books on leadership that are on the market right now do a fantastic job of having this kind of focus. Many of them do. I think the biggest difference with John’s and mine is that ours is in a story form. And there are others that are also fantastic as far as that goes too. This just happens to be our story that we’ve written, but I think there’s a lot of great books on leadership. I think what many of these books do is they talk about the difference between what many people traditionally think of as leadership, which is that sort of top-down, command and control. It’s all about me. You’re here to make me look good! Right? And to be a go-giver leader means that you know you’re charged with a huge responsibility and that is to serve others, to focus on bringing exceptional value to those you lead. First and foremost, a go-giver leader understands a great leadership is never about the leader, but rather about everyone whose lives they have the opportunity to touch.
Halelly: And I believe that in your book you summarized that into five keys, right? So there are these key lessons that you’re teaching in terms of what makes legendary leadership. I’d love for your to briefly describe them because I think people will hopefully go and buy your book, The Go-Giver Leader, which we’re going to link to in the show notes, but just while they’re on their run or they’re commuting to work or they’re doing the dishes, that are those five keys?
Bob: Well, the first three to me are the basic dimensions of good leadership. The big view, if you will, that guides the enterprise, the nuts and bolts that grounds it and the people who are the enterprise. Number one is to hold the vision. This simply means it’s the leader’s job to always have the big picture in mind. The long-range view, to know where the enterprise is going. Now, the big thing here is that you’ve got to hold this vision not when things are easy – it’s easy to hold the vision, easy to have the vision and hold the vision when things are going well – it’s what happens when things start going sideways, which in business they’re going to. And it’s really the leader’s job to respond to these things as opposed to reacting. And make sure that not only are they holding the vision, but they continue to hold that vision and communicate that vision, and that’s the really important. That’s the macro view, the big vision.
Now number two is to build your people. Now, this really means nothing more than it’s the leader’s job to always remember that whatever the enterprise does, whatever it sells, whatever its products or services are, whatever it’s about, really it’s fundamentally about the people. We often hear that, right? And we hear the CEO saying, “Our company is about our people, they’re our greatest assets.” And yet 75 percent of the people in the workforce today, certain surveys say, are very unhappy at work. So obviously that message is not either getting across or it’s not really being lived from the leadership level. But really, when you think about it, building widgets, building a portfolio, building equity, that’s all important certainly. Cash flow. It’s all-important, but none of those is as central to the actual health of the enterprise as building the people who make up the enterprise.
Halelly: Without those people you’ve got no enterprise.
Bob: Exactly. And you know, I think it was Herb Kelleher of Southwest who was the first person to really shift the paradigm of importance from stockholders first, customers second, employees third, and he said no. It’s your employees first. Your employees first, the customer second, the stockholders third. Why? I mean, it’s not just softie feel-good stuff. Herb’s company Southwest has been profitable – I think except for their first year – they’ve been profitable every single year. In business 40 years now or whatever, in an industry where practically all the other airlines lose tons of money every single year. So obviously what he’s saying has some reason to it. Well, think about it. When you take care of your employees, when they feel safe, when Simon Sinek talks about this in his great book Leaders Eat Last, about the circle of safety, about allowing, helping them to feel safe but to know the leader has their back. When they feel that way, they’re going to take good care of the customer. And when they take good care of the customer, the customer is going to come back and they’re going to tell others, and when that happens, then the stockholders are very happy. So it makes a lot of sense to put your people first, to really build your people.
Halelly: I love it. And you know, survey results also show that the number one reason people leave companies is because they don’t feel like they’re being developed or nurtured.
Bob: Exactly. It’s not the money. The money is important, but it’s not the most important thing to an employee, typically. Number three is to do the work. This is basically the opposite of number one, which was the macro view – hold the vision. This is do the work. It’s the leader’s job to not only see it as the big picture, but to see also the small picture. That is to have a solid feel for the nuts and bolts for what the enterprise does. A great leader never expects others to do something that she wouldn’t do herself. She’s never afraid to roll up her sleeves and get her hands dirty. She may be positioned at the top of the enterprise, but she never sees herself above the others.
Now, the fourth key touches upon the heart of the organization. Its soul, if you will. And that is to stand for something. This means that the leader always stays firmly rooted to some kind of moral core of the enterprise. Business is about compromise. It’s about being adaptable. But there are some things on which you simply cannot and will not compromise. There’s a saying – I wish I made it up because it’s such a fantastic saying and I wish I did know who made it up – but it’s be flexible on strategy but immovable on principle. And leaders who do that are respected and they’re followed. In the story, Aunt Elle, the main mentor in the Go-Giver Leader, she says to Ben, the protégé, she says, “What you have to give you offer least of all through what you say.” Of course what you say is also important, but least of all through what you say. More importantly is what you do. But, most importantly is who you are. Who you are is what? It’s your character.
So a leader who has a firm grasp on all four of these leadership traits or perspectives is going to be a strong, excellent leader. And this is I think the point of our book – these four alone aren’t enough for truly lasting, profoundly effective, what we call legendary leadership. And that brings us to key number five, and that is practice giving leadership. Again, we’ve mentioned earlier the core message of the go-giver, shifting from getting to giving, focus on providing value for others. That’s what the go-giver leader does. They make it about their team. You know, it’s so easy, it’s so tempting, for a leadership position to be something one sees as sort of a personal asset, a stepping stone toward building their own resume, their own reputation, their own portfolio. We would say that a go-giver leader operates day-to-day, moment-to-moment from the perspective that this leadership position is simply a way to help build, promote, enhance and prosper the enterprise and its people first. Practice giving leadership can be taken two ways. There’s giving leadership, which is the noun. It’s the type of leadership. It’s giving leadership, right? And then there’s also the verb part – you’re practicing giving leadership. You’re not just thinking it, you’re not just saying it, but you’re practicing it all the time.
Halelly: I really like that. So something that you say, I know personally is true about you, is that you’re an advocate, supporter and defender of free enterprise. And free markets, and individual liberty. And I think that this is something where someone who doesn’t know much about you or about this would even say that this could seem as a contradiction. And I believe that something that you and I both try to do is to help people see that it’s not about self-sacrifice to be giving. And there is so much to be earned by giving. I think that this, in your career, you have really exemplified this and are doing a great job of promoting this message. What do you say to people who seem to have this confusion about, and it comes from our culture which gives tons of (inaudible) to anyone who wants it, about where should you focus? On yourself or others or what?
Bob: Right. And that’s a fantastic point to bring up. You know, law three in The Go-Giver, in the original book, the law of influence says that your influence is determined by how abundantly you place other people’s interests first. What? How could that be? You know, isn’t that … well, okay. First, if you look at all the great leaders out there, and the top influencers and the most successful top money-earning salespeople, this is simply how they run their lives and conduct their business. They are always looking for ways to bring value to others. But as a qualifier, when we say place the other person’s interests first, we certainly do not mean you should ever be anyone’s doormat, to be a martyr or to – what you said I think was perfect – to be self sacrificial in any way, shape or form. Absolutely not at all. Anything you do, any value you give to others, should never be at your own cost. It should always be as a way to build everyone in the process. In the original book, Joe, the protégé, was taught a very basic lesson. And that is that all things being equal, people will do business with and refer business to those people they know, like and trust. People will also follow people they know, like and trust. They will want to be in relationships with people they know, like and trust. They will allow themselves to be influenced by those people they know, like and trust. And there’s no faster, more powerful or more effective way to elicit those feelings towards you from others than by moving, so genuinely and authentically moving from an “I” focus or a “me” focus to what we call an “other” focus. Looking to, as Sam, one of the mentors told Joe, make your win about the other person’s win. If I may, can I put this in the sales context for one moment?
Halelly: Sure, go for it.
Bob: Why it’s so important. But of course this is also in the corporate context and as a manager, as an up-and-coming leader, same thing. But I often, when I speak at a sales conference, one of the first things I say is that nobody is going to buy from you because you have a quota to meet. They’re not going to buy from you because you need the money and they’re not going to buy from you because you’re a really nice person who thinks they should have your product. They’re going to buy from you because they believe that there’s more value to them in doing so than in not doing so. And that’s the only reason why anyone should buy from you. And it’s classic, How to Win Friends and Influence People, Dale Carnegie wrote – and I think this was the underlying premise of his entire book – he wrote, “Ultimately, people do things for their reasons, not our reasons.” So if you want to influence others, if you want to sell more, lead better, what you want to do is you want to tie in, tie together what you want with what that other person wants. And the focus needs to be on what do they value? Because value is always in the eyes of the beholder. So if you want to do the best you can for yourself, the best thing you can do is place the other person’s interests first. But again, when we say this, we don’t mean at your own expense. We mean in such a way that both parties grow, both parties win.
Halelly: Yes! So there is a win-win exchange or trade of value. A value is perceived by each party and your job as a leader, salesperson or really as just a human on earth is to always figure out, “How can I make this trade feel fair to both of us?”
Bob: Exactly. Exactly.
Halelly: And you know, I think that the key is that like when you were describing the principle from the go-giver, about influencing, people could twist that to be manipulative, right? If they remove that part where you said you need to be sincerely interested in the other person’s interest, rather than just try to manipulate them to like and trust you, to get them to do something. So you have to have that core authenticity and genuineness and being a good person, and in what you describe from the go-giver leader, I believe that’s probably key number four where you hold onto principle. So that you’re not doing this in a way that is ever unethical or put into question your motives or that in any way twists what’s in the best interests of the organization. It’s both.
Bob: Exactly. It’s not an either/or, it’s an and. And what you said about authenticity, well, law number four in The Go-Giver is the law of authenticity. And principle number four in the Go-Giver Leader is stand for something. So it’s always got to be character based. And remember, if one’s character is high, then doing something that is manipulative or untrustworthy is actually not even in their best interest, because it’s contrary to their value system. And in order for us to be happy as human beings – and happiness is our ultimate goal as a human being – everything that we do is to be happier. There’s nothing we do, other than what we think or hope or believe it has a better chance of bringing us happiness. And to be happy, you must live congruently with your values.
Halelly: Amen to that. So we’re all a work in progress, and you and I both deal with leaders who are developing themselves and we ourselves are developing. So from your vantage point, can you name one common mistake that you see leaders making that you believe you can help them avoid or sidestep or overcome?
Bob: Well, I think the big thing with a leader, if a leader does make a mistake, it’s not realizing that they need to be focused on the other person. You know, I think the biggest mistake a leader makes is thinking it’s about them. And one of the things that we say in the book that Aunt Elle, the mentor teaches Ben is that if you take the word “lead” – L-E-A-D – one of the biggest mistakes that leaders make is unconsciously transposing the L and the D so it becomes D-E-A-L and they think they’re the deal. As soon as the leader thinks they’re the deal, that it’s about them, that it isn’t about those they’re leading or those they’re serving, now all the sudden you look around and you don’t have people following.
Halelly: Okay, great. Good, so it’s not all about you. Well, Bob, I always hate this point in the interview because I feel like the time is ticking away and we have to wrap up. Before you give a specific action that you recommend listeners take, tell us something that’s new and exciting for you. Is there a project, a discovery, research, something that’s got your attention now? I guess aside from book promotion.
Bob: Yeah, and we’ve been doing a lot of promotion on the new book. But we also have a certified go-giver speaker program where we teach people how to become professional speakers and speak on the topic of the go-giver, the go-giver leader, endless referrals, ultimate influence. You know, my different intellectual properties if you will. And then also we have a podcast that’s been just going really, really well and very exciting. I’m very excited about that.
Halelly: It’s great. I like it. I like the format of it. It’s a lot of variety in a short amount of time.
Bob: Thank you.
Halelly: Cool. Very good. Well, I always want people to leave with something super actionable. Because you know, having insights and ideas from you is good, but taking action is best. So what do you think is one specific action that listeners can take today or this week to upgrade their leadership skills?
Bob: Well, you know, it’s an interesting question because action really is the key. When we say the go-giver, a lot of times people, if they haven’t read the book, they think the opposite of a go-giver is a go-getter. But that’s not true. We want people to be go-getters. Because go-getters take action. The opposite of a go-giver is a go-taker. So we want people to be both go-getters and go-givers, just not go-takers. So I would say take one of the first principles – maybe hold the vision, which as a leader you need to do. And come up with your own vision. If you’re growing within an organization, within a company, what’s your vision that you see for yourself within the company, and what’s the vision that you hold for the company? Or if you manage a team of people right now, what’s your vision for them? And then think how do I obtain buy-in from them? How do I obtain commitment to this vision as opposed to their having a sense of compliance, which never really works? So work on the vision and attaining buy-in.
Halelly: Great. I love that. Let’s make it a little more concrete. So what would you recommend in terms of the length or sort of how far in the future would make a good vision? You know, if they’re going to sit down and think about this, what would you tell them to think about? One year? Two years? Five years? 10 years? Forever?
Bob: Yes, that’s a good start! I think we need to have that long-term vision, if you will, that long-term, those long-term goals. But I think we also have to break them down and ask ourselves what they might look like in 20 years, 10 years, five years, and remember, there are visions for different things in our lives. There’s financial, there’s also physical, spiritual, mental, emotional, social, company, what have you. So I think whatever … I’m always a little wary of saying, “Do this right here and do it exactly like this,” because I really want people to kind of have their own idea of what they want to do, but then do it within the context of setting that vision. So yeah, I like the long-term vision, the medium ones and the short-term ones.
Halelly: Okay, good. I think that’s totally doable. So, I appreciate you sharing that and I hope that people will take you up on that offer and take that action so that they can upgrade their leadership skills. And Bob, before we wrap up, how can people learn more about you and stay in touch? I’m going to link to everything in the show notes, but what’s the best way to stay in touch with you?
Bob: Sure, they could go to either Burg.com, or our new website is thegogiver.com. And that has sort of everything there. It’s “gogiver” without the hyphen in this case, so it’s just thegogiver.com. And while they’re there they can scroll down, get the first chapter or a sample chapter or an excerpt of either of my books, and they can connect to the podcast and connect with me on social media and have some fun!
Halelly: And I can tell you that Bob is responsive to social media because I think that that’s probably how we connected initially.
Bob: I think so. I seem to recall that. But you know, when you’ve been friends with someone for so long, you kind of forget how you met, so I’m not exactly sure.
Halelly: I forget how, but I’m glad that we did.
Bob: Me too.
Halelly: Thank you so much Bob. I’ve appreciated everything that you’ve shared here. I think that it’s great, great value to folks, and I hope that everybody will go get your book, go listen to your podcast and stay in touch with you. Because you bring a fantastic value to the world, and so in the meantime, and until the next time, make today great. Thank you Bob.
Now your job is to go do that, which Bob just suggested you do. Because only taking action can actually make a big difference, not just thinking about it. So thank you for listening. Don’t forget that if you leave a review for the show on iTunes, it helps more people discover this content and since I create it anyway, I would like to reach as many people as possible. Of course one of the most direct ways for you to get more people to get this contact is just to directly share it with people you think might get value from it. So shoot them an email with a link to the podcast page which is talengrow.com/podcast/episode30. If you want to give them this particular episode, or of course if you want to just give them all of the episodes you can just talentgrow.com/podcast and they’ll get it. Or you can tap them on the shoulder and show it to them on your phone or hey, maybe even help them download it on their phone if they’re not sure how to do it. Because my goodness, I would like to help more people.
I’m Halelly Azulay, I’m your leadership development strategist and I am so grateful that you have listened and I hope that it has been valuable. I would love whatever feedback you have to share on the show notes page where I have all the links to everything that we’ve discussed, and there is also of course where you can put comments. So share what you’ve decided your vision might be or talk about something in the episode that struck your fancy or a reaction from you, and anytime that you have any feedback for me, that’s a great place to put it. Until the next time, make today great.
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